Wellness Curated
On Wellness Curated, Anshu Bahanda gets world renowned experts on physical and mental health to guide you pro bono. Packed with content that helps people to understand their bodies and minds better and to find relief from the pain and restrictions that have long prevented them from living their best lives, this show is a go-to resource for anyone who wants to improve their quality of life.
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Wellness Curated
Applying Tao Te Ching to Today's Quest for Balance
Join Anshu Bahanda as she sits with Master Gu, a Taoist practitioner from the Wudang Mountains, to uncover the enduring wisdom of the Tao Te Ching. Authored by the ancient philosopher Lao Tzu, this scripture teaches profound lessons on balance and flexibility, illustrated through the powerful metaphor of water overcoming stone. Lao Tzu himself, before penning this timeless work, was implored by a gatekeeper at the edge of the city to record his wisdom, leading to the creation of these 81 verses as he prepared to retreat into a life of solitude.
Master Gu shares how these teachings can help us manage the complexities of modern life, from personal stress to leadership challenges. Learn how the principle of 'effortless action' and the art of finding harmony amid chaos can enhance our daily lives. Whether dealing with relationship issues or seeking inner peace, the Tao Te Ching offers timeless guidance that transcends cultural and historical boundaries.
Tune in to "Ancient Wisdom for Modern Living" as Anshu explores how the Tao Te Ching's ancient wisdom can address today's dilemmas. What could happen if you started applying the principles of balance and simplicity from the Tao to your everyday challenges? Is embracing the natural flow the secret to a calmer, more productive life?
For a transcript of this show, go to https://wellnesscurated.life/applying-tao-te-ching-to-todays-quest-for-balance-2/
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Anshu Bahanda: So Lao Tzu, who was supposed to be the author of the Tao Te Ching, he is a very influential figure in Chinese philosophy. We don't know enough about him. We know that he, or we believe that he existed in the Eastern Zhou dynasty around the 6th century BCE, and some people believe he was a legendary figure. But later, Sima Qian, in the records of the Grand Historian, believed that Lao Tzu was a scholar and an archivist in the imperial court, and he got disillusioned by the chaos and the corruption in society, and therefore he decided to leave society and he went in search of peace and solitude. So during his travels, when he came across the western entrance to the state of Qin, a gatekeeper named Yinxi recognised his wisdom, and he asked him to leave his wisdom in some form of a record. And that's how we believe that Tao Te Ching started, even though over the years it has developed, it's been adapted, and we have today a very special document. And the thing… We've actually done a podcast on the philosophy of the Tao before. And the…the thing that... that visual, which I cannot forget, which I remember, was this visual of water, and this visual of water flowing and going through all kinds of rocks and the strength of the water, but the flexibility at the same time. That beautiful visual where even if you have a very hard, strong rock over the years, the rock gets softened by the flow of the water. I think that Tao Te Ching talks about effortless action here, or Wu Wei. It talks about yielding in the face of adversity. It talks about finding inner peace, about embracing simplicity, about leading by example. It's a beautiful text or scripture that helps us today when we are going through such complex times. Welcome to Sacred Texts Timeless Wisdom, which is part of our series of Ancient Wisdom for Modern Living. I'm your host, Anshu Bahanda, and as you've probably figured out, today, we're going to talk about Tao Te Ching. And in that, to do that, we have Master Gu with us. He's a Taoist master and practitioner. He spent years bringing the knowledge of this wonderful scripture to the people. And he's also spent years trying to teach people to live with ease away from struggle and tension and strife. Welcome to the chat, Master Gu. Thank you for making the time to be here with us today.
Master Gu: Okay, me too. Very much so.
AB: Master Gu, I want to ask you before beginning my questions. Can you explain the essence or the core of the Tao Te Ching to us?
Master Gu: The essence of the Tao Te Ching is Yin-Yang balance. Yin-Yang—balance well. If we look at society, or across different dynasties—generally speaking—society or people often present something we call Yang. It's too much Yang. And that's why you find Lao Tzu advocating very much Yin.
So of course, Lao Tzu—and generally Taoist culture—teaches us the art of balance. Yin-Yang balance. But in the Tao Te Ching, we see very much the Yin. Why? Why?
Because Lao Tzu observed society, observed the earthly world. And generally speaking, it is very much Yang.
To find the real balance, between the big and the small Lao Tzu advocates for the small. Between much and few—he chooses/advocates few or little. Between action and non-action—he advocates non-action.
So, generally speaking, the essence is about Yin-Yang balance.
AB: So Master Gu, can you tell me what is the relevance of the Tao Te Ching today? Why is it that so many people still resonate with it and still use it?
Master Gu: Firstly, people found the Tao Te Ching. You know, this is a book of brevity—but of abundance. Different people, from different backgrounds, found something different, something meaningful for them.
Those people who like to practise—they found in it something quite like a hint for internal practice. Those from miniature circles, they found some kind of guidance—for strategy, for winning a victory. Those from ruling backgrounds, like rulers or sovereigns—they found this is something for us to follow.
Anyway, people would find—this is the glamour, the charm—how Tao Te Ching is charming. It's quite like one Western philosopher pointed out: Tao Te Ching from China is just like an endless, bubbling spring of wisdom. Always, there's the water of wisdom coming out.
Despite nationality, despite race, different colours—whatever—there's one thing humans have very much in common. All human beings like to live long, and live well.
And Tao, the Yin-Yang balance, is actually chiefly for this purpose—for people to live the quality of human life. So that's why, as a chief action, people abroad also seek it.
AB: Wonderful. And tell me, where are you based? I know you're based in China where exactly in China are you?
Master Gu: Central China's Wudang Mountains—Wudang—is listed as one of the top four sacred lands of Chinese Taoism, along with Oil Village, the Qingcheng Shan in Sichuan Province; Wudangshan, the mountain in Hubei Province; and Luhe Sali in Jiangxi Province.
It contains so many different elements—cultural elements—such as religion, philosophy, martial arts, health, preservation, and wellness. All these different things. Almost everyone who likes culture, when they hear about it, can expect to find something they are fascinated by.
AB: Oh, fantastic. So this is, it's like a home for culture and the Taoist philosophy, is it where you live?
Master Gu: Yes, yes. When we talk about Taoism, we say there’s the philosophical aspect and the religious aspect. Common people, when they come into Wudang, probably think of the different temples, the practices. There are also monasteries and Taoist priests. There are some Taoist religious activities—even today. But that’s just the religious aspect.
As a matter of fact, ever since the classics came into being, it’s all been regarded mostly as philosophy—the Way, you know—for people to find wisdom. To live wisely. How to live wisely. So we—including most people, including me—are very much associated with Taoism in a philosophical way.
If I can be called a Taoist, I’m very much a philosophical Taoist, rather than a religious Taoist.
AB: Yes. So on that note, I want to ask you something very intrinsic to the Taoist culture is this whole concept of effortless action or going with the flow, you know. But what we find a lot in the Western world today particularly is you're constantly struggling and you're constantly hustling and, you know, it's a very different culture. This thing about you have to get a certain amount of productivity. What would you say as a Taoist to people who are doing this today in the Western world?
Master Gu: Even in China, we say we have Chinese civilization coming from the ancient times. And today, there are still two lines—parallel—continuing till today. One is very much Confucian—Confucianism. The other is Taoism. I think these are the two different kinds of nutrition for Chinese civilization.
Confucianism is very much good for the maintenance of society—for different sovereignties or dynasties. It supports social structure—the stability of the social structure. In the Confucian world, people thrive on things like: to be richer than before, to have a higher social status than before, to be better than others—something like that.
Mostly in terms of materialism. Why? Or Taoism? Taoism, yeah. Taoism is something para... You say... paradox? What’s that word?
AB: Paradoxical?
Master Gu: Yes, paradoxical. And if the whole world is very much like Yang—as you know, to be fast is good—but if it’s over-fast, if it’s too fast, it’s not good. A vehicle, a car or truck—if it’s excessively fast, it might, you know… it could really be over.
In the West, as you say, or even for a long time in contemporary China, it’s quite the same—people are very busy. Very busy. And yes, we see the result of so much work, so much struggle—or even, I should say, over-much greed. Because it’s too much. We don’t see people feeling happy enough. Even many people find life very hard to live.
So, as early as two, five years ago, I figured out the problem. And Lao Tzu just asks people to do the same thing: reverse. Reverse! To be that high? Be lower. Or at least, you can find something valuable below. Don’t be that fast—we find something. Lao always says: to overcome harshness or hardness with softness. Why do people always advocate, appreciate, and admire things like working hard, being diligent, taking action?
Lao also advocates non-action—or effortless action. This is just something very mild, very valuable—advice for people to achieve real happiness. Because in that case, people can become more human, more mankind, more balanced.
AB: Something you just said, I want you to explain that more for people listening. And you, while we were researching this, I found that the Taoist philosophy and the Tao Te Ching talks a lot about paradoxes. Exactly what you talked about paradoxes. Well, they say the way up is down or to overcome hardness, like you said with softness. Or the way to strength is through yielding. So can you explain paradoxes a little more to me and how it's used to achieve what people want to in their lives?
Master Gu: Yeah, we say: heaven and earth, male and female, summer and winter, daytime and nighttime—and hard and soft. The most important pair of such paradoxes is wu and wei. You know, wu means "nothing," and wei means "something," or "hidden something," or "being in an array." So Lao Tzu thinks this is the biggest paradox pair. And in the very first chapter, he already starts talking about these two paradoxical elements.
He says "let's see people, common people, most people, we our..." Most people cast their eyes on something very concrete. They look for something visible. But what we name Tao—it's something you cannot hear, something you cannot see, something you cannot touch. And this is Tao.
This is so great—you cannot hear it, you cannot listen, you cannot touch it. It is like nothingness, or emptiness.
In Taoism, it advocates something like a small number rather than a big number. For example, "one"—we have the term one and oneness. This is a very philosophical term. And even zero, or empty, or nothingness. So from nothingness, we have—literally in Wu Wei—we see the term wu, of course. Wu Wei today we know as "do nothing." You do nothing. You simply do nothing.
It’s the most wise—wisest—action. Or the way of action: effortless, or "go with the flow."
Go with the flow. And somehow, as you know, if you don’t understand Lao Tzu, it might seem like something lazy—an excuse for being lazy. But when you understand, you realize it’s actually something that helps you find a good balance. To take action at the right time, in the right way, to achieve the right purpose you need.
AB: How would you say we can apply this philosophy today when people are having major relationship issues there are so many mental health problems in the world leadership is just, you know, people's concept of leadership has changed so much from the Tao Te Ching times where leadership was by example so how can we use this strength and flexibility of water to help us?
Master Gu: From the Taoist perspective, if one is very Taoist-minded, of course he would appreciate and advocate the Taoist way.
If a leader is willing to lead the country in a Taoist way—or if he is a director of a military campaign—he would probably find value in going with the flow. Or, take the leader of a company, the general manager of a company, or even a parent of a family—you would find that the Taoist way applies. Of course, not everyone can follow this way. It’s a pity.
But there are people who appreciate the Taoist way. They really agree with it. They have a recognition of the Taoist way. Then there are people who don’t follow. If they believe only in dominance—like some leaders of some countries, which I will not name—they will find, eventually, that it becomes very hard for them.
In the short term, they may be able to wield some power through dominance—through being very powerful, right? They are just too superstitious about that. But just let it be. They will soon find the bitter fruit for themselves. If they can, as early as possible, adopt the Taoist way, they can achieve results—but in an easier, more natural way.
AB: So what would you advise them to do?
Master Gu: I am a Taoist—a philosophical Taoist, of course. I would suggest them to do like water. Water, seemingly soft... yet the water is powerful. Always unlike a human being—we human beings, you know, always want to go up and up. But water—one very important feature of water—is that it goes down. Water has the natural tendency to go down.
And Lao Tzu sees the virtue of water. He even said: super virtue is like water. I quite agree with that. In my life, I always find that I’m staying in a favourable position—because I’m just learning from water.
AB: So you're saying always look around you and learn from what is around you from nature particularly water?
Master Gu: Yes
AB: And how would you apply this philosophy to say, so much stress and anxiety and mental health issues that exist today. How can you apply the Taoist philosophy or the teachings of the Tao Te Ching to help people?
Master Gu: Because I’m the founder of Wudang Taoist Wellness Academy, when I talk about wellness or well-being, I believe a very important part is mental well-being—your mentality. How you think. The way of you’re thinking. And we have found, through many, many things happening around us in society—many tragedies happen, and keep happening—it seems to be because people are too nervous, too anxious. Their minds are not balanced.
But if we go with the flow, if we stay calm, if we can find inner peace—with the guidance of Taoism—we can avoid many tragedies. We can avoid many conflicts. Why not?
AB: And what about relationships? You know, because people are struggling more and more with their relationships as well. What would you say there? How can the Taoist philosophy help them? And what in the Taoist philosophy, what particularly if they adapted, will help them?
Master Gu: Taoism is chiefly for the purpose. The Taoist cultivation is for the purpose of achieving harmony. Harmony means: harmony between you and yourself, harmony between you and others, and harmony between mankind and nature. Very importantly—it’s the harmony between you and others. That’s the relationship.
So I hope every one of the human beings—or as many as possible—if they can become very Taoist-minded, then we will have a mirror-like peace among people.
Because—like water—water does not contend. Does not contend. If you put water in a, you know, a cup shape—okay, it becomes a cup. If you put the water in a square-shaped box—okay, the water becomes square-shaped. If you put the water in whatever shape, the water becomes that shape. The water never feels like—it never complains. The water never yells, “Oh no! I don’t like this! I will break a hole! I don’t like this!” No. So if we all learn from water, you, firstly, yourself, will become very comfortable. Peaceful. And then—others will also feel very comfortable. Also peaceful.
AB: You said something very important. Master Gu, you said that we. That you talked about harmony and how we need to find harmony within ourselves, not just outside. That to me is the essence of all our relationships. That we're at peace with ourselves. That will help our external relationships.
Master Gu: You are right, of course. When we talk about harmony, there are three layers: harmony between one and oneself, harmony between one and others, and harmony between man and nature. The foundation, actually, is the harmony between one and oneself. If each person forcefully tries to deal with relationships without first being harmonious within, then naturally, they will become harmful to others.
AB: So can you give us a tool to help us achieve harmony between us and ourselves. Some simple tool?
Master Gu: For example, if you are not in harmony with yourself, yes—somebody might feel surprised or not understand. But the truth is, I am just not happy with myself. Maybe that doesn’t happen to this person, but it happens to many people in today’s world. Many people simply always feel at fault with themselves, or they are constantly fighting with themselves. There are two common situations. For example, Jack—Jack is sitting here, but part of his mind or heart is somewhere else, in a place higher than here. What’s that? He is always thinking, “Oh, why shouldn't I be in that position? That higher position? You see, George and I—we were originally from the same village. Why is his position so much higher than mine today? His ability doesn’t even seem greater than mine. I just don’t get it. Something’s wrong.” So Jack keeps feeling jealous. His heart is there, but his person is here. His human being is here, but his heart is there. The two are in conflict, and this creates imbalance within oneself.
Another situation: Jack is sitting here, but his heart is down there. What’s that? “Oh, why? Why am I so low? Why am I so... Oh, I’m not able to.” That is to say—he cannot find himself. He sees only the negative in himself. These are the two situations.
So, how do we achieve harmony between one and oneself? We must change these two situations—bring Jack to here, wrap Jack to here, being together. Or we say: (Chinese verse), we say: first, you should be united with yourself as one. That’s why we say inverse oneness. Inverse oneness.
Your physical body is here. Your spirit should also be here. Come together. That’s very important.
AB: Could you give me a step by step process to achieve this oneness with ourselves?
Master Gu: Like mathematics—in mathematics, we add numbers, and we deduct numbers. In Taoism, we speak of deduction too. To make something less. To lessen the temptation.
We have ears, we have eyes—of course we are able to hear, we are able to see. But in terms of motivation, if you care more about something internal, we should receive this information in a moderate way. Don’t have excessively too much going into the eyes, into the ears, or into the mouth. To eat less—that’s why, you know, fasting is okay for human beings. Because if we are Taoists, or kung fu practitioners, or qigong practitioners, we can absorb qi—we absorb energy from the universe. So we can eat less, listen less, or reduce what we see.
We try to reduce the amount taken in through these different channels—these different senses—to tranquillize the heart. If you ask very practically, “What can I do?” You can meditate more. Yes—stay in a place of tranquillity, peace, and quiet. But most importantly, keep your inner peace. That’s something very practical and res...
AB: Sorry. Go ahead.
Master Gu: Once in a while, step away from your work—to hear the call, to hear the hint from nature. Because we, as human beings, come from nature. And later, we will go back to nature. We must not disconnect from this relationship.
AB: So you said, use your senses less. When you can tranquillize your heart by meditating. Try to find peace within and be closer to nature. Yeah. So, Master Gu, I want to ask you, how would you make the Tao Te Ching relevant to the future generations? What are your challenges there? What is it that helps you?
Master Gu: In these classics—all those great masterpieces—we can use this term Shen Jing. For example, the Bible in Christianity, the Tao Te Ching, the Nan Hua Jing, and the Qingxin Jing. These belong to different religions, different cultures. The number one book for us in Chinese culture is also the Yi Jing. So these classics—these kinds of books—have a unique feature. They all have one thing in common: they can be passed down generation after generation. And yet, they always retain their value. We have a saying, [Chinese saying]. Here is the book. So... oh, can you see that? This?
AB: Yes, I can see Tao Te Ching. Yes. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Now I can see it. Yes.
Master Gu: Okay. So in the Tao Te Ching, it says [Tao Te Ching saying repeated]. Which means: Tao is so grand, it actually pervades between heaven and earth.” Although it’s deep—you can’t hear it—it exists between heaven and earth. Tao is present in however human beings think, speak, or act. That’s something that comes together and is expressed based on your grasp of the Tao.
Everything that human beings do—whatever comes out—is like a reason, or a result. It’s a kind of power. A power based on thought. A sort of human being’s power, derived from Tao.
This is something that exists across the cosmos—throughout ancient history—and even into the future. Tao still exists. The world is always there. So the Tao Te Ching is for people in the past, people nowadays, and people in the future.
As long as people are still alive—as long as human beings wish to live long and live well—they will find the essence. They will find the nutrition from the Tao Te Ching, from the classics.
AB: Thank you. And for those people listening who haven't listened to the Taoist philosophy podcast, just explain Tao once more. This fundamental principle of all life.
Master Gu: Literally it means the way. The way. But this is not something the very concrete way like this path. So for people to walk on. Tao also means the way to do something like how to make a flower, how to make an incense and how to make tea. So Tao, this is the universal way, the grand way for all mankind. Individual or collective people, the common people, the people or the ruler of the people. Tao, people all need to find his own Tao or the way such a level of mastery has to really get the Tao. That's really the level of happiness. So Tao is a kind of key, a general key, a very useful key or the universal law for people for mankind to follow. That is Tao.
AB: Lovely universal way for mankind to follow. That's wonderful. I would love you to leave us with your favourite verse from the Tao Te Ching.
Master Gu: That is Chapter Eight. As you know—Chapter Eight: Shàng shàn ruò shuǐ. I would read the original verse in Chinese for people, for listeners to hear. To hear how, 2,500 years ago, this philosopher expressed such a beautiful verse.
That’s it.
In English, it’s something like this—though listeners can find their own version of the translation:
“The supreme good is like water.
Water greatly benefits all things without conflict.
It flows to places people reject.
Therefore, it is close to the Way.”
And continuing:
“A good dwelling is on the ground.
A good mind is deep.
A good gift is generous—though this version says ‘well,’ which is not that good.
A good word is sincere.
A good ruler is just.
A good worker is skilled.
A good deed is timely.
Where there is no conflict, there is no fault.”
AB: Lovely, thank you so much. And how many, by the way, how many verses, how many chapters are there in the Tao Te Ching?
Master Gu: There are 20. No, there are 81 chapters. 81. So can you see here?
AB: Yes. So there's 81 chapters and each chapter has a certain number of verses?
Master Gu: Each chapter is like one verse.
AB: Oh, I see. Okay, lovely.
Master Gu: Totally. This is not a big book. This just with 500 Chinese cultures, this for sure is not a big book. But on the other hand, it's a grand book, you know.
AB: Thank you. Thank you so much, Master Gu. That's been such an enlightening session. Thank you, Master Gu.
Master Gu: Yeah, I see the time is up.
AB: So yes, thank you so much. We really enjoyed the session. Thank you.
Master Gu: Oh me the same.
AB: Thank you. What an amazing conversation this has been. Thank you so much, Master Gu, for your insights, for your profound wisdom. I hope we can apply for it. I hope we can learn more about the Yin Yang balance, about flexibility, about strength that comes through flexibility, about the peace that comes when we reach this balance. And to our listeners, I hope you're going to take away some incredible advice that has been given today. What I'm going back with is simplicity, peace, and balance. And I want to read out a little bit from the “Tao Te Ching” today, which is that the soft overcomes the hard. The gentle overcomes the rigid. Everyone knows this is true, but few can put it into practice. Thank you for being here for ancient wisdom, for modern living, sacred texts, timeless wisdom. Until next time. May you find peace. May you find balance. May you be happy. Thank you.
