Wellness Curated
On Wellness Curated, Anshu Bahanda gets world renowned experts on physical and mental health to guide you pro bono. Packed with content that helps people to understand their bodies and minds better and to find relief from the pain and restrictions that have long prevented them from living their best lives, this show is a go-to resource for anyone who wants to improve their quality of life.
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Wellness Curated
Modern Mystics and the Power of Tarot
What if a deck of cards could guide you through life’s most pressing questions? In this episode of Wellness Curated, Anshu Bahanda is joined by Tarot expert Alice Mastroleo and holistic coach Manya Upadhyay to highlight the surprising ways Tarot can bring clarity and purpose.
Tarot has been a trusted tool for centuries—whether helping someone rebuild their life after a setback or offering unexpected glimpses into what lies ahead. Alice and Manya share intriguing moments from their own experiences, like how a single card gave someone the courage to launch a business they never thought possible.
Far from superstition, Tarot offers a unique way to connect with yourself and find the answers already within you. If you’ve ever been curious about how this ancient practice works, or how it continues to empower people in today’s world, this conversation will leave you looking at Tarot in a whole new way.
For a transcript of this show, go to https://wellnesscurated.life/modern-mystics-and-the-power-of-tarot-2/
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Alice Mastroleo: The main effect for the divination is the intention and the real connection with the cards. So when you ask for a question, when you connect really with the cards, you can channel maybe some energies that allows you to find the answer you're looking for.
Manya Upadhyay: Tarot actually provides that kind of sense of direction. It kind of showcases to us that we, at the end of the day, have the key for our own transformation. Tarot is not just for future predictions or like, kind of telling a fixed future. It's more so for self discovery to like, you know, figure out where you can grow, how you can heal, what are those points where you need to, like, you know, emphasise and work on. Tarot was used as a tool to get more insights into what, how we could work together and use it.
Anshu Bahanda: So the history of Tarot is fascinating. It started in 15th century Italy, in the Renaissance times, when these families, when these wealthy families actually commission these cards to be hand embossed and hand painted. And it was played as a card game. It was called Tarotchi and it was similar to bridge that time. Then we jump to France to late 18th century, and there was a French Protestant pastor called Antoine Coors de Gebelin. He actually said something which caused a revolution in Tarot. He said, and we don't know how much evidence there is for this, but he said that Tarot contains secret wisdom, secret Egyptian wisdom, which was lost when the Library of Alexandria burned down. So Javelin's ideas got people excited. Occultists all over France, all over England, started associating Tarot with Kabbalah, with astrology, with alchemy. They started developing concepts and elaborate systems around these cards. And then in 1909, Arthur Waite and Pamela Colman Smith developed the Rider Waite Smith deck. And that is the deck that's used even today. I have one of those decks. In fact, I should have carried mine here.
And, this is the first time that the illustrations actually happened. Before this. It was a simple numerical arrangement for the minor arcana. But with this, with these illustrations and these 78 cards, they were now used, they could now be used by beginners, by other people, not just occultists.
So welcome to Wellness Curated. This is your host, Anshu Bahanda. And as we delve further and further into mystical practises today, we're going to talk to you about Tarot that nurtures the mind and the spirit and the body, of course, in modern times. And I would love to welcome two guests today. I have Alice Mastroleo, she's a Tarot card reader and teaches cartomancy, which is a form of fortune-telling. And her quest has actually been to uncover ancient symbols and ancient knowledge. And that's got her involved in many esoteric traditions. We also have with us Manya Upadhyay, who's a holistic coach. She, she's a holistic healer, a life coach, a mystic, an author, and she's founded something called Kind Verse, which is like a sanctuary of love and kindness. Welcome to this chat, Alice and Manya, and thank you for being here with us today.
AM: Thank you, thank you for the invite.
MU: Thank you so much. Thank you.
AB: Now I'm going to ask you, Alice, I'll start with you. Tell me, how did tarot develop? I mean, firstly, what is tarot? And how did it develop into being something that can be used as a divination tool? Because it was just a card game, right?
AM: Yes, that's true. It actually, it's actually a card deck like those we use to play games like in modern time. But the tarot divides into major arcana and minor arcana, which are two separate parts of the deck that collide together. The major arcana develops in the way you told, like in Italy it has been created as a gift to celebrate the wedding between the son and the daughter of the families of Visconti and Sforza in Milan in the second half of the 15th century. And it, it was not created for divination, of course. And it like, it developed itself as a game, but like an, an encyclopaedia of the most important figures of time, like the priestess, the, the Pope or the Ira fantas we know as, as we know it actually the Empress, the Emperor or the arts, the muses, the stars and all this kind of elements, they crossed centuries, like two centuries, before being used for divination while the minor arcana was travelling through the Asia, probably thanks to gipsy population. And it developed a history itself. So the two collide in the centre of Europe around 1,700 plus Venus. And it's funny because every country reclaims the, the like the owning of the deck. Because the. The Asian tells, ah, no, the cards have been developed here, the French say the same or the like the, the, the Kabbalah was put inside by Antoine. So it's a mix and match of cultures that created, I think, in my opinion the whole work so that you know, when something goes back in times you always have to separate the legend from the truth but with the tarot it's very difficult to do so because the story of the Tarot is very, very old and all the influences from several population. It's clear because you can also see it in the drawings or in all the inspiration that created this beautiful divination item.
AB: So, Alice, what I'm trying to understand is how did it become a divination tool? What caused that change? What made it such that it can be used for introspection? Is it just the intent that we set when we use it?
AM: Human beings always had the intent to divine their future, okay and the people always used different tools to do so. I think that using this deck of cards became like natural in order to have a divination effect. Okay. So if we can establish the divination with the cards around a thousand, like in 17th century in France with Cote de Gebelein, with Etteilla, with Papus. So all these philosophers and occultists found out that there can be a connection between the divination and the use of the cards. So I think that besides all the studies that have been made on it, I think that the main, the main effect for the divination is the intention and the real connection with, with the cards. So when you ask for a question, when you connect really with the cards, you can like channel maybe some energies that allows you to find the answers you're looking for.
AB: And Manya, you, you work with Kindverse, right? And one of the tools that you use is tarot. So why tarot? What did you feel about it that helps in healing and empowerment?
MU: Well, when I personally first experienced tarot, it was like a mirror to my soul. So I realised that it not only highlights my fears, but as well as my potential and all of these different outcomes. And then I started using it for my clients and through like, you know, in my healing sessions and I realised that it's actually empowering to create that kind of space for my clients where they can just, you know, open up without judgments. So tarot actually provides that kind of sense of direction and it, it kind of showcases to us that we at the end of the day have the key for our own transformation.
So like, I emphasise on this point that tarot is not just for future predictions or like kind of telling a fixed future. It's more so for self discovery to like, you know, figure out where you can grow, how you can heal, what are those points where you need to like, you know, emphasise and work on, so I found it to be in like a great tool. We also got to, you know, find out more insights about particular clients as I felt their energies. Tarot was used as a tool to get more insights into what, how we could work together and use it.
AB: Thank you. So you're right in saying that it's a tool for self discovery. Right? But I've also found, and I've used tarot many, many, many times, I have a deck of cards, I've given cards to lots of people because I think it's an amazing, like you said, it's an amazing tool that we can use.
But I've also found once in my life, in fact one of the first few times I used tarot, it was also an incredible tool for predicting the future, so to me it wasn't just about the self discovery and it just depends on what message needs to come through. That's what I felt like.
MU: Yeah, see Tarot can be useful in predicting possible future outcomes you know there are possible timelines and you can possibly predict that but then it's not to predict the fixed future. People can always change their current energy and the possible outcome.
So yeah, it can be useful in that you can get an like, you know, an insight and onto what is going to come next. But then again it's mostly I prefer to use it for something like you know, as a tool for self growth and discovery because it gives a very like, you know, insight into the psyche, into the subconscious mind.
So when a client comes to me over like during a healing session it's easier for me to see like look into their psyche, into the subconscious and you know what they are afraid to admit or you know, accept things like that. So yeah, it can definitely be used as a point for like future prediction but yeah, for me personally, in my healing sessions it's a great tool for self discovery and transformation.
AB: So what I want to ask you both is if you had a new client come to you, right who has no idea about tarot, how do you explain it to them?
AM: Manya, if you want to begin then I come second.
MU: If somebody is new to tarot, I would definitely suggest them to get a simple ride away tarot deck and then you know, get the meanings of it, familiarise yourself with the meanings. Journaling also helps with self reflection.
So yeah, that would just create like a healthy process for them to get into that.
AM: Yeah, normally when I get to meet people who are totally unaware of what tarot is, it's during events. So people come because of the curiosity around the tarot but they don't really know what the tarot does. And so I tell them that it's like a mirror. So to imagine a situation in which they feel stuck or they're doubtful about what to do or how to manage it.
And I tell them to like, think about this situation and then ask me the question that comes from the, from the heart. And I tell them that with the tarot, I can create like a path for them which is clearer.
And I can also offer different points of view besides those that they already have because when you're into a situation, you think you're already explored of all the outcomes possible, but it's not like that. So the tarot offers you like a mirror, but of the, in upside down, of that kind of situation. So I tell them that I can help find out what to do, also using instruments that they have and they don't know that they have. So I make them aware about all that they can use in this situation to resolve this block or this trouble that they are facing.
AB: So what you're both saying is it's a mirror into your life at that point. And it shows you your blind spot, which you might be missing, which people around you might be missing. And also it shows you solutions that are there in your energy field.
AM: Yes.
AB: So, Alice, talk to me about the various spreads that there are. So when someone comes to you, how do you decide what spread to do to begin with? And then how do you decide what path to follow? Because there's many, many different spreads that you can do and there's many strands of information you can pick up on.
AM: Yes, that's true. Well, actually, when people book a reading with me, they already choose which kind of reading they want. So I base my readings upon the, the reading they choose. I have readings which I created and I tend not to stick to others people reading just because I, I always improvise. I have my own scheme, but I also improvise because when you have somebody in front of you, you will never know where the tarot reading will go. And I, I think that by improvising, I have more space to offer them the, the best reading I can with the best scheme based on their experience or on, on their needs. So this is my technique, actually.
AB: Okay, thank you. And Manya, I want to ask you about intuition. So how strong a role does intuition play into it? And if I'm someone with no intuition at all, can I still do tarot readings?
MU: Absolutely. Intuition plays a very vital role when it comes to tarot. But if somebody is just starting out and they don't know about their intuitive abilities, or they haven't, you know, sharpened their intuition, they can definitely start working with tarot. It definitely is also a great tool to sharpen your like intuition as well. So it could definitely be used as something to sharpen it over the time. But yeah, it plays a very vital role. It helps. The more you are intuitive, you can easily connect with the energy of the tarot deck and you know, your energy, that it's like a game, it's like a rhythm, you know, and the more you get into it, it gets smoother over the time.
So yeah, definitely. Even if somebody doesn't is aware of their intuitive abilities, they can still start with it, start to play with it a little, dip their toes in the water. But then yeah, eventually they'll start feeling that their intuitive abilities are starting to sharpen up and then they can smoothly function with it.
AB: So you're saying it's a dance between you and your energy and the querent and their energy, right?
MU: Absolutely. I personally did not even get into the meanings of the cards when I started out. Like tarot was just a gift, but my intuitive abilities were always sharp so I didn't even take that much time to learn the meanings and all of that. It was just, it was so amusing to me because it was just so rhythmic, you know, like involving myself, opening a deck and there's just getting into the energy, feeling that energy. And now that I do it for other people, the clients, it's sort of very smooth because all I just focus on is the energies and how I feel with the particular card that comes out and just tap into my intuition.
AB: Tell me something. If it's all about the energy and there is energy between you and the querent, the person who comes to you with the queries, what, what happens? How does this energy interact with each other? Are there times when you need to balance it and are there times, you know, how do you work with somebody's energy?
MU: Well, I'm very sensitive to energy, people's energy and everything. So I definitely have my own, you know, process of grounding myself before getting into a session and then post because while doing it you can easily get people's energy. And if I don't have these, you know, process or self care rituals, then I can easily keep these energies within me. For example, I deal with a lot of people with trauma and then those are some heavy energies and it kind of completely exhausts me. So I have these self care rituals like meditation or journaling that helps me to keep my energy grounded and fresh. And then I go into sessions so that the person, the other person can be free and feel safe and can, you know, just let out all of that that they have trapped inside.
And we can work together to work on those energies that are maybe creating blocks or you know, are somewhere trapped in their own body.
AB: Thank you. And Alice, how do you deal with the energy between you and the querent?
AM: Well, it, it wasn't easy for me at the beginning because I don't want to say I'm an empath. Like it's always a good thing. Actually it's not. So yeah, I, I really have to deal with other, other people's stories which are not always happy and they don't always end well, you know. So I really had to find out how to protect myself, but still interact with other people's energy. So, I actually welcome other people energy. But like with the aim to do the reading, I don't want to sound harsh, but when you end the reading, you don't have anything to do with that person anymore until you see her or him again. So you have to, like create boundaries, healthy boundaries. And I always do something nice for me after closing a very hard reading. So I always tend to create positivity where there's not. And even when I relate myself with other people during a strong reading, I always tend to keep it light. Okay, so I, you already have problems. You don't need me to like do a pitiful face like oh, I'm so sorry for you. You don't want to hear that. You want like somebody that enhances the good strength, the, the good positivity. So I, I choose to bring in the light and on to bring in the darkness.
AB: So now, today we have many, many divination modalities, right? I mean, of course, and there has been astrology and numerology for centuries. What is it that makes tarot unique, especially as a tool for introspection and self reflection?
AM: Well, I chose tarot because I always loved the hidden meanings behind it. And also the fact that yes, there are rules, but you have always room for your own interpretation due to, due to your intuition. Okay, so I think that it's like, I don't know, a language, an instrument that has something to do with something that you can see actually and you can study. But also it has to a lot to do with something that intercourse between a person and the other. So, as for example, the Empress card as its own meanings, but if I do a reading to you and you have this card, and if I do a reading to Manya and she has this card too, the meanings will be not will be the same. Yes, of course. You have two different stories, two different contexts maybe in which these cards pop out. So it's like a story written for each one of us. It, it will never be the same.
AB: Thank you. Manya, would you like to add anything to that?
MU: Yeah, I mean she, Alice pretty much covered everything. But it's just that astrology, palmistry, there are so many different tools and they all have their own uniqueness. But tarot, yeah, for me personally as well, it's like a direct, you know, visualisation thingy. So it didn't need much of any like, you know, in depth study of it. It just needed me to have my intuitive like abilities on point and then just understanding how the cards and like she said, the particular card and how it works in different contexts.
AB: So you think it's, it's that, it's the fact, what is it that makes it unique for introspection? That's what I'm trying to get at.
MU: Because it provides a clear and direct message. That's it. Like with astrology and palmistry, all of numerology, there are just so many points, you know, you have to complete, have like a complete chart.
I mean I did, I started with astrology itself. I used to read birth charts. But then I, like, you know, when I stumbled upon that, when I was like, okay, this is it. Because it was just direct, it was clear cut and it provided me like this complete clear picture of a human psyche. And I'm, I was always very fascinated by it. So first I, you know, used it on myself. I used it to completely see it for myself. And then once I realised that it's actually pretty powerful and it's very helpful, I see, started doing it for other people.
AB: And Manya, are there any myths or misconceptions about tarot that you want to clarify? Like I've had people say, oh gosh, you're doing voodoo, you know, and I just play around once in a while with my cards. But tell me, what have you heard?
MU: I mean, yeah, there have been a lot of misconceptions, especially for people who don't have proper knowledge or who, you know, people who have, who are not aware of all these topics, you know, who are new to all these topics. So I have to face that people do exactly like you said, voodoo, dark magic, that I feel like I hear a lot of stuff but then yeah, I feel like it's okay for them to have their views, I mean, if I was in their place, maybe I would think the same thing if I hadn't, you know, experienced it personally. So I get their like misconceptions. But I obviously make it clear to them and I have had a lot of first time clients so once I did the reading for them, they actually realised, okay, it has nothing to do with all of this. It's actually a sort of new age tool. I mean although it date, it's very old, ancient tool, but still in today's time it's being used for really, you know, these things like self discovery and transformation, healing. So yeah, it's not what they assume it to be. It's definitely something very helpful.
AB: And I agree with you ladies that you're in what you'd said earlier that your intuition does develop as you keep working with the tarot. Because I've met some amazing tarot card readers who have said things which, you know, there's no way another human being could know about you.
Alice, I want to ask you about wellness. So in today's world, especially post Covid, wellness has become an integral part health and wellness of a lot of people's lives. How can tarot help you with health and wellness?
AM: The wellness side, I think it has anything in common with the divination side of the tarot because it's purely introspection and facing which can be the, the problem solving we can have with our dark side, so probably wellness, it's more on the psychological side of the tarot. So who am I, what I'm afraid of or maybe how can I use my dark side in order to, to shine and, and arrive to, to, to my targets? So it's very important to me this side. I always use the, the wellness side of the tarot because you can reach your targets. But if you don't ask how I am going, at what cost, at what internal cost, I'm going to reach this, these targets, I think you're missing a very important part because who I am, I cannot separate it from what I do. So this kind of approach is like the approach I love the most. And in first place I, I started working during COVID because before I was just doing readings to my friends and they pushed me to work with people I didn't know because they told me I was very good at it. So the, the COVID period was the one that launched my activity actually. So I cannot separate the psychological questions from the technical or practical questions. So for me they're both useful and necessary.
AB: So you're saying what, who I am cannot be separated from what I do. I like that line. I really like that. So because you're saying our purpose and our path in life, is there intrinsically in us?
AM: Yes. Yes.
AB: And it's like for us to choose which of the many paths which are there in us is good for us at that point in our lives.
AM: Yes. Yes.
AB: That's lovely. Thank you. Thank you.
Now, I would love you both to tell me one earth shattering story that you have had where you've done someone's tarot and it's helped them and it's made a difference to their lives. Like a huge difference.
MU: Okay. So I have done a lot of these impactful and meaningful sessions now, and all of them have been great, but a few that stand out to me. One was that I did it for a girl who completely, like, she was in her late 40s and she had, you know, she was divorced, she had completely given up on life. She, like, it was a bad situation, and then she had completely lost hope and she was living abroad and then she came back to India and she just needed that encouragement, that empowerment. And she just stumbled upon my website and she booked a session. We, like, I gave her the time and then we did the session. I picked out the cards and the tar card came out. And usually, you know, when people see that tar card, it's like, oh, my God, it's like a big upheaval. But then for me, it's like, it's a big upheaval for the good, for the positive. Like, all the things that are no longer, you know, that do not align with your path anymore, they kind of get like, they kind of shed away and what remains is for a chance for you to build something on a stable ground. So, you know, she restarted building, like, building her life. And then after six months, she actually told me, like, six months before, when we did the reading, I told her that I see you like, building a business and all of that. And she was like, no, I don't see that. I'm. I'm working this job and I've never thought about that. And six months later, she sent me this big text and she was like, oh, my God, you were right.
And I started that and it just happened. And she kind of rebuilt her life. And I thought that was really, after six months, getting that sort of, you know, message. And she was, she was very thankful of how her entire life changed by taking that one decision, which she thought she would never, she never would take that step, you know, but she did.
And just like that, I also did a session where a man was wrongfully accused of rape and the trial sessions and everything were going on. So, like, his sister kind of asked me to do the reading. And we got to know a lot of things about the person who kind of accused him. A lot of details that otherwise, you know, wouldn't have never came out. And those were definitely helpful. And he was let out. So, yeah, some very, you know, impactful but difficult, but really nice sessions.
AB: Thank you. Thank you. Alice, what about you?
AM: Well, one of my favourite stories is the one of this girl who contacted me two years ago and we started doing a journey with cards because we hear now twice a year actually. And on the first contact, on the first reading, she had a job who, which was quite boring for her, easy but boring.
She had this relationship with this person who was coming back and forth, out and in her life and she just lost her father. So it was not so critical, but actually there were some unsatisfying points in her life. And right now she completely managed to overcome her father's death.
She cut bridges with that relationship. And another one was quite similar.
She started her own path in the flower design career. And she's super, super happy. She's having lots of requests. So I'm so happy to hear from her because on the first reading all the cards were, were reversed. I remember this, there were like a couple of cards were straight and on the last reading we had before summer, all the cards was straight and she was super happy. She was guessing to how to invest more money in this, in this career because she probably needed a second person to manage it. So I was super happy for her. And even, you know, if it wasn't so tragic, there's no need to have tragic lives in order to ask for help or ask for a guide. So probably you're just unsatisfied and you want to change for the better.
AB: Very nice. So I have a fascinating tarot story as well. Years ago, about 30, 33 years ago, I had gone to this tarot card reader and he was actually, he had a job. He used to just do this, like Manya, I was saying, for friends and family. And you were saying, Alice. And, and he put out my spread. And at that point, I just finished studying, I was very focused on my career. And he kept saying, in two months you're going to meet someone. And in every spread he did and everything he did, he kept saying, so he keeps coming back to this person. And I was laughing. He kept saying to me, it's so strong. I think you're going to marry this person. And I walked out of there laughing, saying, he doesn't know what he's saying.
And he said to me, you're not taking me seriously. Come to me with a cake if you're right. If I'm right. And we left and it was a big joke and I walked out laughing. And two months later, I did go back to him with a cake. And I've been married to that person now for 32 years.
MU: Wow.
AB: So that's my tarot story and that's why it's very dear to me.
So thank you, Alice and Manya, for your insightful comments, for telling us what a strong tool it is for introspection, for looking within us, for empowerment, for changing the parts of our lives when we need to.
Thank you. I'm really grateful to both of you.
MU: Thank you so much.
AM: Has been really, really nice to talk to you girls. Thank you so much.
AB: I hope we've helped you in some little way when we've talked about this tool for self reflection and not to treat it with suspicion, not to treat it with worry and just go with the flow and let it help you with your flow of life.
Let it help you lead your best life and empower you. Thank you very much. Till next time.
