Wellness Curated
On Wellness Curated, Anshu Bahanda gets world renowned experts on physical and mental health to guide you pro bono. Packed with content that helps people to understand their bodies and minds better and to find relief from the pain and restrictions that have long prevented them from living their best lives, this show is a go-to resource for anyone who wants to improve their quality of life.
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Wellness Curated
The Force of Geomancy: How the Earth Reveals Our Destiny
Imagine this: ancient traditions that can read the secrets of the earth, offering glimpses into the unseen forces shaping our lives. In this episode of Wellness Curated, Anshu Bahanda sits down with Dr Ayodeji Ogunnaike, a scholar who’s spent years studying African and Afro-diasporic religions, to talk about geomancy—a mystical practice that feels like it’s straight out of another world.
Dr Ogunnaike shares stories that will leave you in awe, like diviners who can predict someone’s destiny without being told a thing, or how these age-old practices reveal cosmic patterns that guide us in ways we might never have imagined. But it’s not all ancient history—it’s deeply connected to the chaos of today. They also talk about how geomancy connects us to something greater than ourselves, offering a sense of balance and calm when life feels overwhelming.
It’s the kind of conversation that makes you stop and think: What if there really is a bigger order to everything? If you’re curious about how these ancient practices still hold meaning—and maybe even a little magic—this episode is one you’ll want to experience.
For a transcript of this show, go to https://wellnesscurated.life/the-force-of-geomancy-how-the-earth-reveals-our-destiny-2/
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Anshu Bahanda: So picture this. It's a quiet evening, open skies. It's an ancient village, and there's the the air humming with anticipation. There's a group of people peering at a patch of earth, and there is one head which is pouring over the cracks in the earth. They use a stick to draw some lines, which, to all of us who are untrained, just look like lines, but to someone who's trained, they reveal unseen energies and the way we humans are aligning with the earth. So we're going to talk about geomancy today, and the term originates from a Greek word. Geo means earth and manteia means divination of prophecy, and you find, you would have heard of geomancy in some form of the other it's prevalent in Africa, in Europe, in Asia, in the Americas, and it's called different names, some people like in Europe, it's called geomancy but in India, it's called Vastu. In Africa, it's called IFA. In China, it's called feng shui. So there's many, many different names to this, science or art, all of whatever that helps you align with the natural world. It helps you align your energy with the energy of the natural world. Welcome to Wellness Curated. This is your host, Anshu Bahanda, and as we talk about mystical practices for modern minds today, we're going to talk about geomancy and its role in understanding our relationship with the natural world. And it's my pleasure to introduce to you Dr Ayodeji Ogunnaike, who's a scholar who specialises in African and Afro-diasporic religion, and he focuses on religions in Nigeria and its connection with Brazil. Dr Ogunnaike is a PhD from Harvard. His research on IFA specialises on divination systems from Yoruba land in West Africa, which I'm very excited about because I've done, you know, work... I worked in the art business in Africa, so this is a real treat for me. He also talks a lot about… and his research focuses on Candomble, which is an Afro-Brazilian religious tradition. And he also talks about the impact of modernity on indigenous African religion. Welcome to the chat, Dr Ogunnaike.
Dr Ayodeji Ogunnaike: Thank you very much for having me, it's a pleasure to be here with you.
AB: Thank you. Now tell me, can we start with…will you explain to me what is Geomancy?
Dr AO: Yeah geomancy…. There are kind of broader, and then perhaps even more narrow ways that you could define it or understand it. I think you did a very good job of introducing it at the beginning or the intro of this episode, that technically speaking, it's the interpretation of specifically the earth or a number of natural elements being able to read, or the signs that exist in them or manipulating them. Scholars often times talk about a random generator, so a process that produces some kind of information from natural material that you can then interpret. The traditional way that it's usually done is by, as you mentioned, making dots or drawing lines on the Earth or the sand. But then there are other kinds of ritualised ways that it has developed, people have done it by making the same signs, dots and lines on paper. They'll use… sometimes crushed wood material, like wood powder or things like that. So it doesn't have to just be the Earth, it could be sand, it could be any number of different materials. And as it's developed, people have come up with increasingly kind of sophisticated or complicated methods of more or less the same ends.
AB: So you know where I've seen it. I've also seen people work with ley lines a lot, and I've seen people walk around with something that detects radiation, like a little device that moves around based on radiation. So can you explain all that? Just the general term of geomancy and all the different things that are involved… could be involved?
Dr AO: It could involve any number of different kinds of natural materials. I'm not as familiar with some of those methods that you've talked about. My expertise is primarily in Africa and the African diaspora. But we kind of undermine the cosmological system that undergirds geomancy in the process, how it operates, is an understanding of a fundamental order, a kind of divine or cosmic order of all of life and how everything is interconnected. And so you can learn to identify the patterns in the natural world if you interact with it appropriately, that give you an essence, a kind of window into this kind of cosmic order that usually is imperceptible to human beings that are kind of everyday lives. So the type of rituals that you're describing, I think would very much fit that kind of description, that you have materials from the natural world that interact with each other, or can reveal certain kinds of information if you have been trained to be able to observe them and interpret them.
AB: Explain Ifa to us, because I don't think that many people all over the world know of it, so I'm very excited to have you explain it to us.
Dr AO: Sure, so Ifa is a really fascinating tradition. It's a divinatory system…it's a method of receiving privileged information from Yoruba oriṣa or deity. The just figure called the Orunmila yoruba mythology
AB: Wow! It’s called Urmila.
Dr AO: Orunmila is the deity.
AB: Wow! Okay. Because it sounds Indian almost.
Dr AO: Ohh! So Orunmila is sometimes also called ifa and there are some people they talk about the connections between ifa and islamic forms of geomancy. Draw parallels between the word with the name Orunmila and the Arabic word Ramal. So, in Arabic, 'ilm-e-ramal or Dak-e-Ramal is how you would refer to what we know as Geomancy. I mean, that’s the term for the arabic process. In Yoruba mythology Orunmila existed at the beginning of the foundation of the universe and so sees everything folding in at essence outside of time and has privilege knowledge of the total cosmic order of everything that exists. And through the system of divination, you are able to receive a message about what you need to know for a particular moment in time in your particular situation. It involves an incredibly vast amount of knowledge and the form of memorise poems, proverbs, songs, myths that the diviners memorise and they use a process very similar to European, Middle Eastern, and islamic forms of geomancy… um you interpret these symbols…
AB: That was Orunmila, Wow!
Dr AO: Yeah…You interpret those symbols and draw on this vast body of memorised information and knowledge to set people's lives in proper order. It also includes a vast array of pharmacology, right? So information about the secret nature of the natural world and how we can leverage that to help people live better lives.
AB: How is this so people would have come across, say, if those who have come across the European form of geomancy, how are they different?
Dr AO: So, if anyone is familiar with the European form or system of geomancy, there are those 16 figures, right? That's a combination of one or two dots in four rows, and you'll find the exact same symbols used in IFA, the exact same ones. They have different names. They have indigenous Yoruba names, but the symbols are exactly the same. The way that they're derived is a little bit different. In the Ifa, you would use either 16 palm kernels that a diviner will hold in their hands and cup up like this, and then, depending on how many they catch and see remaining in their other hand, they'll make a line or a dot. One. Or two, and then they'll derive the symbols that way, or they use a divining chain, which is made from elements of the palm tree, and depending on how half shells fall, either concave or convex, that will help them derive the symbol that way. So the symbols are very much the same, and it involves a similar interpretive practice of the configuration of natural material, vast corpus of indigenous knowledge, all in Yoruba that's memorised by the Diviners, is quite different. There is a similar interpretive practice of linking a kind of narrative structure to the signs that have been derived from the geomancy process, but the material that exists in it is very different. It's completely indigenous for the Yoruba. And my theory, along with some other scholars, is that because the indigenous Yoruba cosmology operates in a way that's very similar to that of European and Islamic geomancy, it was very easy to integrate the symbolism and certain aspects of the way geomancy is carried out in other contexts, and then merge them together in what we now know as IFA today.
AB: And is IFA practiced widely today?
Dr AO: Yes, very, very widely. It depends on how you would define people practicing IFA. There are, I frequently speak with the Babalawo on practically every continent. The Babalawo is the Yoruba term for an IFA diviner. They are in practically every country in the world. There… Some scholars estimate that there are at least tens of millions of people all around the world…
AB: Wow!
Dr AO: …to perform divination for them. Some of the Diviners I work with in Nigeria, while I work with them, we have attended to clients in the UK, in Germany, had people contact me about finding Babalawos that can work with from all over the world.
AB: Tell me, is this the same as the Islamic tradition? Is Ifa the same as the Islamic tradition?
Dr AO: Some scholars have hypothesised that they are the same, and there are a number of very good reasons for that. I happen to think that they are different. There are a number of indigenous African systems of divination, or geomancy, that I think are primarily derived from Islamic geomancy. And most of them have preserved some of the Arabic names of either the symbols or the houses — is what they call them. You derive further symbols from the initial ones that you get from the lines in the sand and their positions right which number they are in this series of derivation it's oftentimes called a house. And those houses frequently contain either an Arabic name or have an Arabic name or an indigenised version of it. So you translate it from Arabic into an African language, and that's a good clue that it is primarily an Islamic system of divination that's just been indigenised. The Yoruba system does not have this kind of recursive process of deriving the symbols from the initial ones. You just get one right away, and then all of the material that is contained within that symbol is completely indigenous. It all uses Yoruba names and terms and categories, and it refers to things that don't have much of an antecedent in Islamic traditions. So I view them as different, but very much linked. I've worked with Muslim diviners and Ifa diviners, and they oftentimes say that even though their systems differ slightly, they'll give you the same sign at the end of the day. And their messages may differ a little bit because one's articulated in an Islamic cosmology, and the other is from a traditional Yoruba cosmology, but the messages are almost the same.
AB: Is this something that's done with the Earth? Or do you also do it in buildings, in houses, and in offices?
Dr AO: Yeah, I would say it's primarily done in buildings, which is why, you know… depends on how you interpret the term geomancy. If you interpret it very literally, it's something that you would do on or with the earth, and that does in many cases. It can still happen. For most Muslim diviners that I know in Nigeria who practice geomancy, they'll have a board, and they'll have sand that they kind of cast on it, and then they draw the lines there, and they'll derive the geomantic symbols from the sand on that board. The Ifa system is to be very similar; they have what's called an Agere Ifa, and you may have actually seen some of them in your work in African art. It's one of the most iconic pieces of African art. They're usually round, but sometimes kind of rectangular-shaped, and they have a bit of a kind of a hole in the middle where they put camwood powder, or a particular kind of wood powder, and they press the staples onto that wood powder there. So. And so they can, in essence, do it anywhere. They aren't limited to just doing it outside. They can do it in a train, in a building, um... anywhere.
AB: It's fascinating because it reminds me, I've worked very closely with both Feng Shui and Vastu, particularly, and now even those are done primarily in buildings. Though, when people are buying a piece of land, they might take a specialist to tell them about that piece of land, even before they built buildings there. And sometimes it's fascinating, because sometimes people start saying to them, I use some sort of a suit to say, how do you know so much about me? Because just by going into someone's house, you can say, you know, like, where… whose part of the house people have illnesses [in] or where in someone's body… would you know? I remember someone, someone came into my house and said to me, “oh, has your foot been hurting the last two years?” And I was freaked out and like, “how do you know?” But I guess you know, that's something that you can tell because of the alignment with the earth.
Dr AO: Yeah, the systems of geomancy that I am most familiar with, some of the very advanced practitioners can actually do that, they look at people and to be able to just identify the patterns in the world… Um… this system itself is primary one you could describe as a bit like reading…reading the cosmos and so they don't necessarily have privileged information just by seeing the world and they get a message and they interpret it and sometimes as you said it can be very very specific. I have stories about very particular messages that you think you could never tell…
AB: Tell me some interesting stories you know, so people understand what we are we talking about.
Dr AO: Sure, I'll try to think of a good one. So there was one time… there was a woman who came to the diviner that I worked with most closely in Nigeria. I served as a kind of apprentice for him for a year, and he was the one who taught me how the system of Ifa divination works. There was a man who came to visit, and the way the Ifa system works is to test whether the diviner is legitimate or not, you don't even need to tell them the problem you have or the question you have. If they're really good at what they do, they should be able to just tell you what it is. So he came—the diviner, performed the Ifa divination and said, “Oh, you're here because you want to marry a woman… um… you're unsure about whether or not it's a good idea. If she has a birthmark on the inside of her right thigh, that is the person that you are meant to marry, and you shouldn't waste too much time before proposing to her” And you know, the man got shocked, and, you know, looked at the the Arabah, that's the title of the diviner with whom I work. He said, Yes, that's exactly why I'm here. I've been in a relationship with my girlfriend for a while, and she does have a birthmark on that part of her body. So you're saying everything is okay. This is the decision I should make. You said, Well, I'm not telling you that. That's what Ifa is right? This is the way cosmically, your destiny and her destiny have been constructed. And so if what you say is true and she has the birthmark, go ahead and get married.
AB: If I take, take all that information and relate it to where we are today. You know, on a planet where stress and anxiety is so high, tell me, how can we use something like ifa, geomancy to help people bring peace to their lives and for them to get grounded and get stability and calmness.
Dr AO: So really wonderful question, I think the best place to start, and I experience this with my students all the time. As our world is seemingly increasingly chaotic. There are problems everywhere. The world isn't really well ordered, and that causes anxiety, especially when we recognise that we, human beings, are the primary reason for that, and so we need to do something to get it back in order. And I think that anxiety is, in and of itself, not actually a bad thing. The anxiety will drive us to take some kind of action. The question, of course, is, what kind of action do we take? And that's where geomancy, or systems like Ifa, can be incredibly valuable. One, because they give us direct advice about what we… practical advice about what we can and should do. But if we stop and think about that process itself, if a system of geomancy, for example, can tell you what you should do practically, it means that there is a kind of cosmic order behind all of the apparent chaos that we see, and that we are, in fact, actually a very small part of it, likely not even the most powerful or authoritative part of it. And so all we really need to do is identify what our kind of roles are in the cosmic play, and if we play our part well, we at least will be in harmony with ourselves and with everything around us, regardless of what's happening with the outside world. And we can kind of give up control of everything else that's happening, because the fact of the matter is, our abilities are very, very limited. Our cosmic perspective is very, very limited as well. And so if we try to take on too much, it will always just crush us, because we're not capable of bearing that much. And so I think both the practical advice of a system like Ifa or geomancy is very, very helpful and can direct our anxiety, but if we reflect on it and what it means and how it operates. I think it can also give us a great amount of peace as well, in knowing how we fit into the cosmos and what we do need to worry about and what we don't really need to worry about, or what we can't really change, and what's beyond our power.
AB: You're saying, you're talking, and rightly so, about how there is a cosmic order, and if we align with that order and work with the energies of that order, we have less resistance in our lives. And you know, if we almost surrender to that order, what about free will, then?
Dr AO: You know the Yoruba have a really wonderful way of approaching this. I did a lecture in a class on it just yesterday, we have a concept of Ori, which literally in Yoruba, means your head. You have an inner head and an outer head. Your outer head is this physical one that you can see and interact with. Your inner head is really like your cosmic double, or your cosmic identity and self outside of space and time. And every person's responsibility is to understand the contents or the nature of your head or your destiny, to cultivate a positive relationship with it and to work with it and manifest it as directly and appropriately as possible. Now, where free will comes into it is the Yoruba say you actually choose your head outside of space and time in heaven, and you don't always know exactly what the contents are, but you make the conscious choice, and also it is your choice whether or not you choose to cultivate a positive and productive relationship with your head. So I told the students, I'm a fairly short person. If I decided I wanted to be a professional basketball player, I likely wouldn't get terribly far, right? That's not part of my Ori or my destiny. I have the free will to try to force it to happen, but it's not going to result in anything positive for me.
AB: So you're saying we have a little bit of free will, as long as it's within the cosmic order, as long as we stick to the cosmic order. That's not our free will, the cosmic order is the order of the universe so to say.
Dr AO: Yes, yeah. And I think that's the perspective of the geomantic traditions that I know. There are the broad cosmic forces that are going to do what they do, one way or the other. You know, geomancy from the Middle East, Europe and the Islamic context are also very closely tied with astrology. The movement of the stars in the heavens is more or less independent of what I want as an individual person. I can't change it. But I could understand how it might affect my life, and then I can choose to respond in relation to that. Therapy often talks about this same kind of process. Let's say oftentimes you can only clean up your side of the street. In a relationship with other people, you can't change another person, and it's probably not good to invest too much in changing another person. What we can do is change the way that we respond to them, or we relate to them, that is within our power and control. And if it's true of just another human being, we think about the whole cosmos, my goodness, how it seems a bit arrogant to assume that we could exert huge influence over something as broad and as fast as that.
AB: And also going back to something you said to me earlier, you were saying that we can really practice geomancy anywhere. And we were talking particularly about the Ifa tradition, where you talked about the board and the sand, which can be done anywhere. Are there situations where the geomancy doesn't work?
Dr AO: Yeah, it's a great question. I do know, with respect to the Islamic forms of geomancy with which I'm familiar, there are times when you are not supposed to do it. I believe in some traditions, at least sunrise, sunset and high noon. Are times when you are not supposed to perform geomancy. I'm not an expert on the actual practice of it myself. So it may have something to do with the fact that you're supposed to be praying at those moments, as opposed to performing geomancy. But it could also just be that, because of those important cardinal points of the sun that you know, it's not an auspicious time to be engaging in that practice. With respect to Ifa, I don't know of particular times or places when it's not supposed to work, but the people who perform divination or geomancy, and also the tools or implements that they use do need to be prepared appropriately. There are rituals of purification that you know you have to go through. Um, your… I would say, to allow them to speak, right? Otherwise you could still, you know, cast the dividing chain, or, you know, use palm kernels, or, you know, whatever other method you use to gain the information. But it might just be random nonsense, and in turn it won't get you anywhere. So, and that's why there are ritual practices that you have to learn and you have to master, and you have to be careful about observing. So I'm not sure about specific places where it cannot work...um…as much as conditions in which you’re maybe not supposed to do it. And then also which you are… sometimes the physical orientation of the board that you're using, or the way the diviner is sitting, matters quite a lot.
AB: What about negative energies? How do you deal with situations where… How do you stop negative energies from coming in to play
Dr AO: That's primarily the goal or the purpose of these rituals of purification. You know, there are certain states of being in which you are not supposed to perform those rituals, the ritual of divination or geomancy, because it could leave you open to something like that, for example, or it would still allow you to receive the message. But there's a very human element in geomancy. It can be very scientific and precise, but even with the most precise science, there's always a human element of interpretation and application. And so if you are not prepared to interpret correctly or accurately yourself, that can actually be very dangerous.
AB: And what about when there is… or when it suggests disharmony or imbalance in the environment? Then how would a geomantic diviner rebalance the environment for the client?
Dr AO: Yeah, it's a wonderful question, and I think they would likely take it on a case by case basis, but the broad answer that I think I could give is that it always involves some form of sacrifice or ritual action a person has to give something up, usually, to set everything right.
AB: You're just saying it involves some form of sacrifice, whether material or non material? Normally?
Dr AO: Right.
AB: I was just saying, what are some of the common misconceptions that you've seen about geomancy with you know…
Dr AO: I think one of the biggest is that, because there is a strong element, especially in Africa, of secrecy to geomancy, people perceive it as perhaps a bit sinister. They're not well educated about it, and they're worried about the people who do it because there's an understanding that it's very powerful, if it's powerful, and secret, that there might be something sinister there, and that it might be evil and it might be predatory.
AB: So I also want to ask you about Candomble, the religious tradition that developed… the African, Brazilian religious tradition that's developed. Where does Geomancy play a role in that?
Dr AO: So Ifa was one of the predominant Yoruba religious traditions, and along with many others, it was brought to Brazil and was practiced there for for a while, because of how complex the system is and the amount of knowledge that's necessary to practice it well, and the amount of time it takes to train. It's very, very intensive. Because of the very difficult conditions for Africans and their descendants in Brazil in the 19th century, primarily…um…the tradition didn't survive. So it was an important part of Afro Brazilian religion in the areas where it was present. But somewhere in the early 20th century, it fell out of use because people were not trained to continue it. That has changed. However, now in starting, and I want to say maybe the 1970s and certainly by the 1980s with increased connection with Nigeria, more and more people have been initiated into Ifa, and it's becoming an increasingly large part of the practice of Candomble.
AB: Tell me about… you know now we're surrounded by electromagnetic waves, Wi Fi, phones, computers. We're constantly in this space. So does geomancy have a solution to all these waves of creating harmony in spite of the way we live?
Dr AO: I think this is just my own personal opinion, that if we were to perform, if I divination or geomancy for modern society as a whole, I think it would say that our relationship with technology is out of balance. We're addicted to it, and it distracts us from things that we're really supposed to focus on. And so we… we need to get connected to other things. We need to stop living so much in a world that we've created in machines, and then understand how to relate to a broader world that existed, you know, has existed for all of our existence. And has quite a lot to teach us. That's where the wisdom of these traditions actually comes from, right interpreting signs in the world and their cosmology around us. And we've been…become very disconnected from that, I think, in the modern world.
AB: So what does Ifa say about AI?
Dr AO: I am not practicing diviner myself so I probably have to ask one of them. But I did write an article once on how… um… the tradition of Ifa…there was a particular verse that I was taught by the diviner who trained me. That described it as a kind of modern world or the society that was brought by Europeans to Nigeria. As a disordered way of interacting with Ogun. And Ogun from the first part of my last name — has the year by date in the I of technology progress. It’s very kind of individualistic and hyper productive and I have been doing an analysis of how Ogun is not a bad deity… um… just like everything it’s about balance. You need to learn how to interact with Ogun properly. And there is a… your best system of how you do that… you understand what the potential dangers are if you don’t do it well. And you understand what the benefits are if you do it well. And I… prompted by this verse from the ifa or corpus that I was taught, I reflected on just that verse and myths that I know about Ogun that seem to very much fit modern American society and capitalism and you know… technology. AI would be a great example of that and how we focus too much on it and we integrate it too much into our life at the expense or without being balanced by a number of other factors. So I think I wouldn't say it’s bad, our reliance on it is perhaps disordered. And we need to be very careful and make sure we understand it and how we should interact with it before we integrate it into every aspect of how we live.
AB: Also coming back to how geomancy can be… has been adapted in modern times. So Ifa particularly because that’s your specialisation. Have you seen it help businesses and organisations or individuals on an everyday level
Dr AO: Absolutely well I know… I know of… I never mention names but I know of a very prominent business man in Nigeria… who became very widely celebrated and successful, who made his business decision based on advice that he received from Ifa from the diviner that I worked with. The challenge I think especially in a modern context is that we’re oriented very differently from the cosmology of geomantic systems or a system like Ifa. When you come to Ifa, or we call it Ilm al-raml in the Muslim form of geomancy. You are a small person coming to very powerful cosmic forces asking for information or guidance about your place in a much broader web. The way corporate culture tends to work is well I contract things out, I tell you what I want. I give you that information and then I…you know put it into practice. I am in control all the time. One of the great benefits of geomantic systems is it forces us to reorient ourselves and say “I am not necessarily in control. I am asking for advice & guidance about how to position myself.” So if I were to say… a CEO & I were to boost productivity I would need to be prepared for the fact that the geomancer might tell me… “Well you don’t actually need to be more productive. I am not giving you advice on productivity, I'm giving you advice about the environmental impact that you know your company is having. Or I’m giving you advice about the difficult working conditions of your employees. I am giving you advice about other things that you need to solve. You get the message that the cosmos believes that you need the… whether it’s god or tradition…that’s what you get. You don’t get to tell the geomancer or the diviner that this is the information that I want. It almost works the other way round. You’re giving your marching orders and of course it’s your decision whether you want to listen to it or not, but it might not give you the answer that you’re looking for. I have been asked multiple times…umm…but it always works out better if you listen.
AB: Lovely, that was such an interesting chat. Thank you Dr Ogunnaike for this valuable information and I thank our listeners for being here. I hope they have understood a little more about Geomancy and Ifa. And I hope they will approach this with respect and with an open heart and see how they can use the knowledge of the cosmos to live in better order to live in better order with nature, with the environment, with the universe. So thank you for being here and I hope to our listeners you learn something new and that you carry this knowledge from ancient traditions incorporated a little bit into your everyday life. And that will help you find clarity, peace and a deeper connection to the world around you. Thank you.
Dr AO: Thank you for inviting me.
