Wellness Curated
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Wellness Curated
I Ching in a changing world: 3,000 years of wisdom
Can a 3,000-year-old book still make sense in today’s world? In this episode of Wellness Curated, host Anshu Bahanda explores the fascinating world of the I Ching, also called the Book of Changes. Joining her are Erik Schön, author of The Art of Change, and Sandra Constantine, a Chinese metaphysics expert, who shares how this ancient text offers guidance for life’s ups and downs.
Erik explains how the I Ching’s wisdom helps us rethink the idea of change—not as something to fear but as a natural part of life. Sandra connects the dots between the I Ching and other Chinese traditions, showing how it provides both insights and direction for making decisions.
The conversation brings the I Ching to life with a story about a 19th-century Chinese artist, offering a glimpse into how its teachings can be used to make sense of life’s turning points. From starting new chapters to understanding the deeper “why” behind our choices, this episode is all about how old ideas can still feel fresh.
If the idea of drawing wisdom from an ancient text intrigues you, this episode offers fresh perspectives and practical insights. Tune in to see how the timeless teachings of the I Ching continue to resonate in today’s ever-changing world.
For a transcript of this show, go to https://wellnesscurated.life/i-ching-in-a-changing-world-3000-years-of-wisdom-2/
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ANSHU BHANDA: Welcome to a new episode of Wellness Curated. I’m your host, Anshu Bahanda. And in this episode, we’re going to talk about, of course, ‘Mystical Practices for Modern Minds’. And we’re going to talk about I Ching or the Book of Changes. It’s an ancient Chinese divination text and it’s based on 64 hexagrams. Now, each hexagram is made up of six broken or unbroken lines. And the I Ching originated in China about 3,000 years ago in the court of the Emperor Fu Xi, and it’s been expanded and refined since then. Confucius also studied the I Ching and he commented on it and he’s meant to have contributed to its philosophical interpretations.
Now, there is a little story I want to start… share with you before I begin, because it will show you how the interpretations of the I Ching can vary in many, many ways. So, in 19th century China, there was a talented young artist called Lin, who was very good with brush and ink. But because it was a male-dominated society, she didn’t get the recognition that was due to her. She got an apprenticeship with a master in a region far away. And she was in a big dilemma. Should she take this up, leave her family, go to a different region, or should she stick with tradition and not take up the apprenticeship? So, she decided to consult the I Ching. She threw the coin six times and what came up for her was hexagram 54 or Kuei Mei. This is the Marrying Maiden. So initially when you see this, you think, ah, she’s not supposed to go; she’s supposed to stay back and get married. And that made her heart sink. But, however, as she explored it further, the meaning of Hexagram 54, she realised that it was more than just talking about marriage. It was talking about tradition and about new beginnings. And it warned her against rushing into things. It also said there might be some minor discomfort for or temporary short-term discomfort for longer… for her… to achieve her long-term goals. This helped Lin make the decision and she decided to go. And she decided to approach the whole apprenticeship with patience and humility, understanding that (the) true mastery takes time.
Lin went on to become a celebrated artist and she was known for her combination of the traditional with a new perspective. And she credits this to the I Ching, as the turning point in her life, because to her it was about the interpretation of the I Ching and the fact that she had to undergo a difficult transition before she achieved what was her goal.
It's my pleasure to introduce our current speakers. We have Erik Schön, he has written the Art of Change. This is a book that offers a modern interpretation of the I Ching. And he talks a lot about change, about this world which is in constant flux, and how change should be natural and easy, according to the I Ching. We also have with us Sandra Constantine. She’s the co-founder of the Show and Tell Academy and she’s also proficient in various Chinese astrology including I Ching, Bazi, Qimen Dun Jia. She's also proficient at face and palm reading and name, and date selection.
Welcome to the chat and thank you for being here with us today!
ERIK SCHÖN: Thank you very much for having me.
SANDRA CONSTANTINE: Thank you, Anshu!
AB: So, Erik, I’m going to start with you. Can you explain to me how does the I Ching’s approach to change differs from the modern western perspective on it?
ES: Yeah. Change is easy. Change is natural. That’s the I Ching way. Even the character ‘I’ means change, right? But it also means “easy”. So, already in the title of the book we get this feeling of change is natural, change is easy. Whereas in the Western world — I’m based in Stockholm, Sweden — we often think of change as something unnatural. It’s hard. It’s difficult. And where there’s a lot of resistance, there’s a lot of friction in the world. But maybe, and this is what I Ching tells us, and this is in my interpretation — The Art of Change — is… let’s turn it around. Let’s say change is the natural thing. When we have times of stability… that's maybe the unnatural thing. So, I think that’s the key difference. It’s a bit of a mindset shift. And I think we can learn a lot all across the globe from this 3,000 year ancient wisdom that has stood the test of time.
AB: That’s true, because everywhere at the moment there’s change. Wherever you look, there’s change. And I don’t know if it was there in our generation before, but for some reason I feel like it’s been… that change has just increased since post COVID. I don’t know what your view is and how we can use this ancient wisdom to help us with that.
ES: Yeah, I think that the times in what is now China, it wasn’t China at the time… it was a lot of small states. They had a lot of change. Maybe they had even more change than we have had in the world after COVID. There were wars, there were pandemics, there were social upheaval forming a continent or forming China. So there were turbulent times for sure.
And what’s in the I Ching is definitely something we can be inspired by today.
AB: Thank you, Sandra. So you’re someone who’s looked at various Chinese astrological practices. So what I want to ask you is how is the I Ching different from the other Chinese astrologies that you’ve done? I mean, does it complement them? Is it different? Do they work together?
SC: Okay. Because I Ching is actually the father of Chinese metaphysics, or Chinese astrology… is the father. So, I always tell my students that if you know I Ching, you can read Bazi, you can read Qimen, you can read any tools in Chinese astrology by the time you know I Ching. Because I Ching not only gives you the ‘what’ and ‘how’, but it will give you the deeper meaning. It means it can give you the ‘why’ and the needs, which is sometimes we forget. We forget as a human being, we actually not want, but we have to see the needs. For Erik’s books, I think is more on the... Erik have three books, right? Trilogy. Right? One of them, I think is better to use Qimen Dun Jia, which is the strategy. Now, this Qimen Dun Jia, we force what we want. But for the I Ching, it can see that… Okay, if you take this strategy, the end result will be like this… Are you ready? If the process is not like what you want, it’s like that. So that’s why it’s better if you have any Chinese metaphysics, you learn I Ching first. Because this one is the basic.
AB: That’s very interesting. What you’re saying is that the I Ching will give you different strategies, and it'll give you the end result of every strategy as well…?
SC: Plus the ‘why’. Sometimes we are always wondering, ‘Why I have to go through this one? You said I will win.’ ‘Yes, but the process. How about the process?’ This is from I Ching.
AB: That’s very interesting. So, it actually gives you the free will to choose the path of your life. That’s fascinating. I want to ask you both something, actually… the story of Lin that we talked about and the interpretation of the I Ching there. Now the interpretation of the I Ching can be quite nuanced, you know. How do you advise that someone who’s a beginner, who’s just beginning to look at it, doesn’t oversimplify it? Because had they oversimplified it, Lin would have not pursued her career if she had just looked at the basic meaning.
ES: For me, in my interpretation, I try to keep it as simple as possible. So, you first, I mean, you need to check what your situation is. What are your needs as a human being right now, in your context, what problems do you have? What challenges do you have? What opportunities do you have? And based on that, you can pick one of the 64 chapters or verses or sections. And then, the way I’ve interpreted it is… I’ve put those six items as questions, as questions that you can ask yourself to make yourself think and form your own opinion. So it’s like, you can use this as a coach when you help people, or you can use it to coach yourself to come up with your solution. So, that’s the approach I’ve taken. So, based on those six questions, you will find new perspectives, hopefully, and you can apply those insights to act or to change your behaviour, or change your thinking in that specific circumstance[s]… in that situation that you’re in. So, that’s sort of a bit of a modern take that I’ve chosen to do in the book.
SC: From my perspective, because the key word here is ‘the beginner’. When I’m talking about the beginner, it means you don’t know I Ching at all. You only know I have to cast the coin six times, and then this is what I got, right? So, I always teach my students that you need to know, ‘what is your focus’? Lin actually has to know that his focus is… His focus is… if I take this opportunity, what will happen? So only focus on that one. Do not focus on the relationship. Do not focus on the marriage. Do not focus on that one. Because your question is about your work. So, focus on the work. That’s why in I Ching, if you understand the eight trigrams… Enough already. Because these eight trigrams will evolve to 64 hexagrams, which is from the... from Lin’s case is 54... Hexagram number 54. On the top is considered Zong Gua, which is the thunder. Thunder means “you go!” But you have to imagine the thunder, also. Thunder when you go is like a strike, but doesn’t have a plan. After you strike, then what next? And then on the… below is the Tui, which is communication and then inner peace. You have to plan… You have to know what you need to do after this one. So that’s why Hexagram 54 actually answers Lin’s questions, but because Lin focusing is a bit dual. It’s become a relationship and then the work. Right? So, I actually have to direct focus when casting the coins. No, already I only focus on the work. The rest I close my eyes first. Because this is what you want.
AB: See? But her question was, ‘should I go or should I not go?’ Her question was not ‘should I go… Because… what should I do for my work?’ Her question was, ‘should I go or not go?’
SC: But she is also thinking, right? She’s also thinking, when I have to go, then I have to leave my family. Yes, Correct. Right. So it’s become like that. And then my... I always teach all the clients and all the students do not ask ‘yes’ or ‘no’ questions.
ES: Yeah, I want to hook on to that, Sandra, because that is so important. And I can give some examples, because in my interpretation this chapter is called, Underdog. And the questions… I can give you the questions. It’s very short. So when lacking ‘influence’… So that’s the key word. When lacking influence, how might we do our best? When lacking influence, how might we keep our integrity? When lacking influence, how might we aim realistically? When lacking influence, how might we wait until the time is ripe? When lacking influence, how might we act according to context? And when lacking influence, how might we act according to expectations? So, these questions help you to see different perspectives that you may not be aware of initially, but it will help you to form your opinion and to help you to act in what’s suitable for you in your context. It doesn’t give you answers. It's not yes-no questions. It’s a very open question to make you think and feel.
AB: So this is part of your book, Erik…? Is this what you’ve written in The Art of Change?
ES: Correct. Correct. What I try to do is turn these sections or chapters into a set of questions, as I just gave examples of… And I also try to add a little poem in the beginning to lighten up your spirits a bit. So in this case, for chapter 54, Underdog, the Marrying Maiden, the poem is like this: Expected, follow. Surprise, go beyond process, just like in marriage. So you’re expected to follow in marriage, but you’re also expected to go beyond and give positive surprises. So, it’s… it’s not either/ or… it’s not one or the other. It’s a lot about finding this potential dilemma or paradox and handling it, and do both… not either or both… and, you know, follow a bit, but also go beyond the process... and that’s a positive surprise. So I think this chapter is very, very interesting because it captures this little polarity, if you will. But, again, what I try to do is help people to find their context, one of those 64 chapters or more and, then, by questions… help people think.
AB: So for each of the 64 chapters, you have worked out a set of questions.
ES: Exactly. Those six questions are based on the lines that Sandra talked about. So, this is a way of making it more easy for people to understand and get into the I Ching, because as Sandra very well knows it’s very, very complex and you can interpret those signs… This is just my interpretation, but I hope it can help people to think for themselves and get better lives in that way.
SC: If I can add, Anshu, actually it’s like yours… You also considered ‘beginner’ in [the] I Ching, right? For me, it’s very simple: 1 to 60 hexagram is actually a sequence of life. It’s your life… my life… Erik’s life. So it’s… Let’s say after you are 54, you will go to 55... after 55… Abundance, you will go to 56… Travelling. After 56… that one you know already. Okay. After I got this one, I can… I can… tolerate... I will get my… my life… very beautiful, very abundance… After that I have to let go. That one is 55. And then I have to let go everything and then go without any falling back. And then I have to go and then go… pursue better… 56 and then again 57… 58… when complete to 63, which is completions already, 64 is another game. So, it’s like playing game. You are… You are going up, level up, one level up… So that one 64, you start to… 1, 2, 3, 4 and then continue… Your life is always like that…
AB: So, are you telling me, Sandra… just to clarify… that each person goes through all the hexagrams in their life…?
SC: Correct. But if you know exactly what you need, the so-called negative hexagram, you can skip. For example, 11 is the best hexagram, they say, 11… After 11, you have 12… 12 stagnations. But if you know already, your stagnations will not go long. So, you can jump directly to 13, which is very nice. Fellowship. People will follow you because you understand the life already.
AB: Right? Thank you! So, Sandra, when a client comes to you, asking you to help them with a decision-making process, say, talk me through how you do it…
SC: Yeah. If we talk about a client it means they don’t know about I Ching. You don't need to know about I Ching. They come and then they will ask questions. I only said that make sure your questions is the 4 ‘W’s and one ‘H’, at least. So, that’s why I can answer you better. And then I can give you options. So, that’s why I can answer you better. And then I can give you options… But if you’re a student…
AB: So… explain 4 ‘W’ and 1 ‘H’...?
SC: Who, What, When, Where, and How.
AB: Okay.
SC: Hmmm… But if you’re a student… no, you have to read first for me, so that I understand you understand… because I always have this analogy: You want to have a good bed, but you only pray to the god that god, I need a bed, so I can sleep better. But you didn’t mention whether you want a King Koil or you want the… any, any brand, but when the god give you something that [is] different from your mind and then you blame the god. Correct?
AB: Mmhm… mmhm…
SC: It’s the same. Actually, it’s the same! It’s the same…
AB: Now I want to ask you both another thing: So, I Ching is a tool of divination, but it's also a philosophical text. So, how do you balance these aspects in your work?
ES: For me, this is the starting point, right. For a lot of things going on in Chinese history and Chinese culture. It’s the source for The Art of War by Sun Tzu; it’s the source for Lao Tzu — the Tao Te Ching. So it’s very profound and it sort of finds patterns in life, as we discussed earlier on the podcast. The way I’ve chosen to do it is… in the book I have like a glossary where I explain in some detail with references about the philosophical parts of it. Whereas in the chapters I just focus on the questions. I just focus on letting people read, feel, think, and then act, and then learn based on the situations that they’re in. So, that’s my approach, trying to separate it a bit, keeping the philosophical parts in there for the interested reader, but also to make the threshold low for people to get into it, keeping it in a separate part. But there’s a lot of research going on right now, as we speak, regarding the relevance of the I Ching and the Taoism on modern things like complexity theory, complexity processes. So, it’s in a sense not only philosophically interesting, it’s interesting from a research perspective to… to practitioners and that combination I find fascinating. And I’m a practitioner, so I interpreted the Tao Te Ching and The Art of War into The Art of Strategy and The Art of Leadership, but it all comes down to the founding philosophy found in the I Ching.
AB: Yes, thank you! Sandra, would you like to…?
SC: For me… for us… in Show and Tell, we will give them an app, which usually… currently, people, because of digitalisation, they want everything simpler. I said, I can make it simpler for you, but for divinations or representations, you need to still put your heart into it, because by the time you explain what is happened to your apps actually, is based on the questions... So that’s why I said that with the rise of the digital and data-driven world, Show and Tell can give you the apps, but we cannot give you all the technical answers. IT is good, but [we] still need the human touch that’s why I cannot give all the explanations on the apps.
AB: So you’re telling me that the apps can replace the throwing of the coins, but the interpretation, you still need to go to a human being…?
SC: Yes.
AB: I would love you both to give me an example of something that really struck you… from maybe the clients that have come to you... Erik, you can start. I’d love an example of, you know, something which, where you help them make a decision. And it was a very difficult decision…
ES: That’s a good one now. But I think one key concept in I Ching, or the Art of Change, as I call it, is about timely balance. That’s truly fundamental. I mean, we talk about balancing decisions and actions on timing and context. And I’m a practitioner. I’m a managing director of a company. So, I try to apply this on myself from time to time. So I try to eat my own dog food, if you will. I don’t know if that’s a good metaphor, but I use it myself. So, to find the right timing to make a decision… I mean in business we have many, many decisions to make. Some are reversible, we can change them… some are irreversible, we cannot change them. And then, finding that sweet spot when the timing is right in your context, for your business.
So, that’s something that I try to live by. And, unfortunately, I cannot go into all the details because it’s a bit of a sensitive business matter that is sort of under non-disclosure… but it’s ongoing right now, as we speak. And what I find now, this… now is the time… in my context, now is the time to make this very, very important decision, so it’s this timely balance. So, it can be different in… at different times. So, if I would have taken this decision six months ago, it would have been another decision, but now is the time to take the decision and it will be the right decision. So that’s one example.
AB: Thank you! Sandra?
SC: But I think I agree with you, Erik. Because of what? First thing first. For any Chinese metaphysics forecasting, we need time. Divine timing… divine timing. So, meanings sometimes, let’s say, Erik… if Erik asked me now, now, roughly, I can… I can see, I can foresee… like I can foresee that Erik’s got the… something that he needs to do... But when Erik asked me, if, let’s say, this is not alignment, me and Erik doesn’t have any affinity, my answer, maybe it’s not correct. It’s not correct, because it’s not come into an alignment. Luckily for me, when the client come to me and then asks questions, mostly it’s aligned. Mostly it’s aligned means… when I say something, okay, you have to do A, B, C, D, E... This is your choice. Looks like in the next six months you will be like this... If it’s correct… if the condition currently is correct… looks like the next six months also correct. Usually from that moment, the client can say that. Okay, Sandra, your interpretations for current moment also is correct. So, meaning… I said, okay, then I know already, this is your options: 1, 2, 3, and then you can choose.
AB: And, Erik, lastly, I want to ask you… I want to just go back to one thing that we said earlier, we touched on briefly, is about change being natural and easy. So, you had said that change should come easily, and I Ching… You know, the ‘I’ of I Ching is about change. Now, how can we help people understand this? Can you elaborate on this for us? Because at the moment, like I said, I mean, there’s change everywhere and it’s causing so much stress and mental health issues.
ES: Yeah, and I’m sure Sandra can chip in as well... But to start, I mean, as human beings, we’re amazingly adaptable, right? People change careers, they go back to school midlife... they can move to another continent… they can deal with enormous personal challenges…
So, in a sense, we know we can do it as human beings. But what I think the I Ching can help us with or The Art of Change, as I call it, we can be inspired by nature and we can be inspired by metaphors. You know, nature is changing all the time; day to night. We have the seasons, you know, going back and forth. And we have things like water. Water is flowing… water can be ice… it can be flowing like a river… it can be very still. So, I think the famous Chinese philosopher Bruce Lee, of some fame for movies, said, “be like water”. And that’s directly out of I Ching. So, we can try to be flexible, while still keeping our integrity, you know, walking straight, following our heart and mind. We can try to find harmony in those opposing forces. You know, the inertia and the flow… the stability and the change. And also trying to find this timely balance. That’s the kind of inspiration we can get from the I Ching, as I see it. We can do it… There are so many examples… The I Ching can just help us with some questions to make better decisions and actions… But I’m sure Sandra… Sandra has something to add here…
AB: Yes, Sandra, please tell us…
SC: No, for me, it’s like very realistic. Any change, we will feel uncomfortable. Any change! Even the change to good also, you will complain… Change to bad, also, you will complain... The first thing that humans always do… the first thing, the first step must be complain. So, for me, it’s like… do not against the change. Because transformations is pain. Even 46 Growth… the… one of the hexagrams is 46 Growth… That’s also not easy... So, for me, it’s like… you just do… you try to do… trust the universe. And then, at least now, because you know I Ching already, you know what is the next step.
ES: One thing to add there, Sandra, that I forgot to mention that… change follows the line of least resistance… just like water in nature. So, nature… the water is sort of going around the obstacles and finding… where it wants to go... So, if we can be a bit more like water in that sense, following the line of least resistance, then change will be easier.
AB: Can you explain to me simply how someone does the I Ching?
SC: Okay. Because currently we are in the digital world, I can choose directly… I can take my physical cup or directly use my apps. But for… the traditional one, actually, you have to use the coin.
AB: You have to throw the coins.
SC: Yeah, you have to throw the coins.
AB: And it’s three coins that are thrown six times, right?
SC: Yes.
AB: Okay, fabulous.
ES: And the way I did it, I skipped the coins because that was too complex for me...
SC: Ya, me also…
ES: So, I thought… How can we do this in another way to reduce that potential threshold? And then it would be, okay, let’s look at the 64 chapters or sections or verses and give them names that could potentially help people to identify, you know, one or two or three maximum… that are relevant to their current circumstances… their current context… their current situation... And then they can read those chapters and then get those six questions per chapter to make them reflect on their situation. So that’s another approach.
AB: But that’s interesting, Erik... You let people choose the hexagram in a way…?
ES: Correct. Correct! So, I gave them agency. They should feel that they are in control of that, and that’s one way of doing it.
AB: So that’s interesting… And then we come back to the fact that there’s so many different interpretations in the I Ching. And, obviously, you’ve both done years and years of study to get to a point where you fully understand it. And this is something that needs to be delved in, studied deeply, because the interpretation is unique to what has come up then and to your life, and your circumstance at that point.
Thank you! Thank you, Sandra and Erik…
SC: Thank you!
AB: …for this wonderful conversation… for taking us through this ancient wisdom and the modern interpretations that you’ve both given us.
ES: Thank you! My pleasure.
AB: Thank you! And remember, as we said in the story of Lynn and we’ve seen many, many times, having a chat with Sandra and Erik today was that things are not… in the I Ching… things are not as they might appear at first glance. You need to dig deeper, you need to reflect, and you need to see what resonates with your unique circumstance.
If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please don’t forget to subscribe to Wellness Curated. Please leave us a review, so we can continue to bring you such conversations and join us next time in another fascinating topic. Until then, I hope you find balance... I hope you find wisdom... I hope you find peace… in this ever-changing flow of life. This is Anshu Bahanda signing off. Thank you!
