Wellness Curated
On Wellness Curated, Anshu Bahanda gets world renowned experts on physical and mental health to guide you pro bono. Packed with content that helps people to understand their bodies and minds better and to find relief from the pain and restrictions that have long prevented them from living their best lives, this show is a go-to resource for anyone who wants to improve their quality of life.
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Wellness Curated
The Power of Shamanic Healing: Stories from the Ancients
In this episode of Wellness Curated, host Anshu Bahanda sits down with two remarkable shamanic practitioners, Kuauhtli Vasquez and Julie Kramer, for an insightful conversation about the ancient art of shamanic healing. Kuauhtli, a peyote shaman deeply rooted in Mexican traditions, shares his experiences using ceremonies and rituals to help people heal, move energy, and connect with the natural world. He explains how plants like peyote play a vital role in supporting mental and emotional well-being, particularly when it comes to overcoming trauma.
Julie, who has been practising shamanism since 2000, introduces the practice of soul retrieval, where a shaman helps someone recover lost parts of their spirit that may have fragmented during traumatic events. She discusses how reconnecting with these missing pieces can restore a sense of wholeness and balance. Julie also shares her thoughts on working with helping spirits and the role they play in guiding shamanic practitioners.
Together, Kuauhtli and Julie explore how these ancient practices can work alongside modern mental health approaches, offering a more holistic view of healing. They discuss how shamanism goes beyond just addressing physical symptoms, diving deeper into the spiritual causes of illness and imbalance.
If you’re curious about how shamanic rituals, like peyote ceremonies or soul retrieval, can offer new insights into mental wellness, this episode will leave you thinking. With personal stories and practical insights, Kuauhtli and Julie shed light on the powerful connection between the body, mind, and spirit.
For a transcript of this show, go to https://wellnesscurated.life/the-power-of-shamanic-healing-stories-from-the-ancients-2/
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Anshu Bahanda: Today, I want to ask you something. When did you stop dancing, and when did you stop singing, and when did you stop getting enchanted by stories, and when did you stop getting comforted by silence? So I read that Shaman, Gabriel Roth, who wrote about this, and she said, in the ancient times, when someone would come to a shaman and say that they were depressed or disillusioned, those are the questions they would be asked. And literally, these questions talk about us being alive. The answers tell us, are we alive? Are we connected to the world around us? And this is what the Shamans have been doing for centuries. They have a sacred connection— between people that are physical and their spiritual selves that the Shamans have been dealing with. They literally are the mediators between the physical and spiritual worlds. They're not just medicine men, as a lot of people think. They're also guides. They carry ancient wisdom from ancient stories, and the word Shaman literally means one who knows. And this, this was, I think this phrase has come from tungusic, which is in North Asia. And Shamans are found all over the world, actually, from Siberia to East Asia to Africa to the Americas. And in Latin America, there, shamans are considered as keepers of the rainforest. So not only do they look after the health of the people, they also look after the health of the forest.
Welcome to Wellness Curated. I'm your host, Anshu Bahanda, and today we're talking about healing traditions across cultures, particularly shamanic healing traditions. So joining us today, we have two extraordinary practitioners of this ancient art. We have Kuauhtli Vasquez, who's a peyote shaman, and he's rooted in the Mexican traditions of Central America. And then we have Julie Kramer, who brings a contemporary perspective to traditional shamanism and has been a shaman since the year 2000. Welcome to the chat, and thank you for taking the time to be here with us today.
Kuauhtli Vasquez: Thank you for the invitation.
Julie Kramer: Yes, indeed. Thank you for having us.
AB: So I'm going to start with you, Kuauhtli. There's all these opinions about what a shaman is. Some people say they are guides. Some people say they're medicine men. Some people say they're talking to nature. Tell us what a shaman is.
KV: A shaman could be considered all of those, and probably more. But then again, every person is different too. I mean, there's people that specialise in different areas of this practice. I would say overall, this term has been used for people that, for the most part, work with plants and as a connection with nature. Song, dance, moving energy. This is what we say. A shaman knows how to move energy and move energy that is outside of the Human Sphere and move energies that are inside the human body, the human spirit, and the human mind, like this. So by moving these energies, the shamans can help adjust and align things in nature, and align things and people. So there, this is how I see it. There. Shamans are people that know how to alter the existing state of different phenomena to bring about better health, better health for nature, and better health for humans. So the health aspect is, is, I think the doctor is almost a word that could be used for Shaman. But at some point, the whole word Doctor became kind of CO opted in, unless you had the initials MD or PhD or something like this word considered a doctor, or before, if people like this term that you use, know there's a difference between knowing and believing. This is one thing that came to my mind when you said this word about a shaman, one who knows when you practise something and you have direct experience. Results. I think this is knowing and believing if somebody gives you something and you say, take this. I believe it's going to help you when you don't know. So, like, this is part to differentiate some of these terms that you've that you've raised.
AB: Okay, okay, so, yes. So what I liked, what you said, was someone who knows how to move energy and change the state of different phenomena, externally and internally. Fantastic. That was a really good explanation. This was someone in Mexico who said to me that to become a shaman, his last test, they drew a three-foot-wide circle around him in the middle of the Mexican desert, and he had to exist there with no food, no drink for 11 days, and they left him. He couldn't leave the circle, and at the end of the 11th day, he was pronounced a shaman. So Julie, tell me a little bit about your own practice and your journey into shamanic practices.
JK: Of course. Thank you Anshu and thank you Kuauhtli, for the beautiful response that you gave. I was introduced to shamanism quite by accident, although, as it turns out, I think it was intentional on the part of the helping spirits in so far as the fact that I attended a workshop that unbeknownst to me would alter the course of my life. And it was a simple introduction that occurred by way of a two-day introductory workshop here in British Columbia, which is where I'm from. During the course of that workshop, I learned the practice of shamanic journeying, entering into natural trance states using singing, dancing, whistling, drumming, and rattling, to then be able to perceive the presence of the helping spirits who are all around us all the time. And I formed immediate connections with my helping spirits, and it was a sense of tremendous homecoming. Although the practice was new to me, as was all of the terminology that was used, I'd never heard terms like shaman or shamanism or shamanic healer or practitioner before. Those were all terms that were unfamiliar to me, the practice itself, the process itself, of contacting, and helping spirits using these very simple means, using singing, dancing, whistling, drumming, and rattling, felt so natural to me, and it was so easy. It was so direct and immediate, and so that enabled me to begin forming relationships with my helping spirit.
AB: Julie, did you have to go through any tests before you became a shamanic healer?
JK: In my case, the person that I learned from did not become a teacher with whom I had an ongoing relationship, although later I did form relationships with two living teachers, not ancestors of mine or relatives of mine, two living teachers based in the United States, Sandra Ingerman and Betsy Bergstrom, who were extraordinarily influential teachers for me. And what's also true is that the helping spirits have been my teachers, and eventually my students became my teachers. And so I would say it's a path of learning that's unfolded on many levels concurrently.
AB: Fabulous. Kuau, I want to ask you, if you're wearing a headdress. And then people talk about, of course, there's talk about psychoactive plants that are used and face painting is used. So can you talk us through some of the tools and symbols that you use?
KV: I have different instruments, flutes, drums, things like this, the rattles and guitars, charangos, a bunch of different musical instruments that produce the vibration. The vibration of the music creates a certain atmosphere. A lot of times people ask me, like, they think that their house is inhabited by dark spirits or something like this, you know? So I tell them, well, if you play nice music, you light some candles, you burn some incense, you bring some flowers, you put them in the middle of the room with a vase, and you start saying beautiful words, maybe read poetry or some, you know, spiritual phrases, that all of this creates a vibration. This vibration is what is moving the ether. When we have ceremonies, we'll have a fire, because a fire is one of the most important tools for healing work in our culture.
We have water. We use feathers for the wind, and then we're usually sitting on the earth. So as far as the tools, these four elements would probably be considered the most powerful tools in our culture. What you could call upon or use. So this has. These are seeds from a tree. Right? And we make these into rattles. And then we have the feathers from various birds. And this eagle was injured, and we found them on the road. So we saved him. His feathers and his body make an instrument that calls upon the spirit of the eagle. So, like this, we connect through these instruments to the different things that we find in Nature.
AB: And the Headdress that you're wearing and the Face markings, which we've seen sometimes.
KV: Yeah. The feathers are used, as I said, to represent the wind, and they're also kind of, like, in our culture, become presentable to the spirits. Yeah.
AB: And tell me about the traditional Mexican ceremonies that you have been involved with. How do you use them today to help people?
KV: They're based on fundamental health principles. Some people call it a medicine wheel, where they have a circle divided by X, and in there, there are four segments, and each of those segments is, for example, one of them is eating good food—for example, Chilli. Mexican people created many types of Chilli, and they shared these around the world. Why? Because Chilli is one of the highest things in vitamin C. You know, Chilli makes you produce endorphins, which makes you feel good when you're eating all these foods that were eaten in Mexico and then shared with the rest of the world is one of those segments, right? Good health. The other one is like the sweat lodge. The sweat lodge is like a vapour bath, where you heat rocks and then you put them in a little hut, and you put in the steam. So this steam, we have words for all of this, Atala chinoli. You know this is water transformed into life. So when you breathe this steam, it helps you to purify and cleanse.
AB: I've been in one of those.
KV: They are very good for your health. And then another one is the ceremonies, which are becoming more prevalent in all parts of the world. And then the other one is the dance and the music we call chi Chiquita. It's like moving energy. So these four basic principles of health in Mexican culture have been spreading around the planet.
AB: So, Julie, now I want to ask you about shamanic healing. Shamans use techniques like soul retrieval or extraction healing, and of course, shamanic journeys. So, I mean, soul retrieval, I believe, is when they feel that a part of the soul has gone missing for a person because of trauma of some sort. So can you describe to us, Julie, how you take participants through these techniques?
JK: What I do is work with the helping spirits to diagnose the presence of spiritual illnesses or spiritual imbalances, which is looking at a different type of causality, but also looking at ways in which spiritual illness and or imbalance can exacerbate pre-existing conditions. And so there's certainly the piece about looking at the root cause, and there's also the piece about looking at factors that can cause someone's existing situation to worsen significantly. The process essentially involves the practitioner going to their trusted helping spirit and asking for a diagnosis. And so the process begins with the diagnosis that's provided by the helping spirits, and then the practitioner works in collaboration with the helping spirits to provide the remedy, and then supports the client through their integration process, and also considers steps that have to do with preventing anything further from occurring. So, preventing further imbalances and preventing further spiritual illness and the relationships between the different types of spiritual illnesses, I think, are important to underscore, because a particular spiritual illness doesn't exist in isolation from the rest of that person or their entire being, there's a relationship, insofar as so, soul loss, as you accurately described, refers to when part of the soul essence fragments to actually protect itself. And this is a common misapprehension that people often think that soul loss happens because of the trauma. In other words, as a result of the trauma, which implies following the trauma. In my experience, soul loss happens in anticipation of the trauma. So it's actually an incredibly intelligent form of self-preservation on the part of the soul, where part of the soul that is threatened or at risk actually leaves to protect itself, but that means it stays intact. And so in the instance where a client were to come seeking the support of a shamanic healer, for example, presenting symptoms that are commonly associated with loss. One very common thing that people port with regard to a soul loss experience is that they've never felt the same since that event occurred, they've never felt like themselves again, or they've never felt a sense of wholeness or complete wellness again. And so that could be following an accident or a breakup or a difficult transition. And so, of course, there could be other symptoms too, but just to speak about some of the common symptoms that people experience with soul loss. So the practitioner would, of course, create the space for the client to share their symptoms and their experience, and then would undertake a journey to the helping spirits, to their trusted helping spirits, to ask for a diagnosis. And if the diagnosis is that soul loss has occurred and that soul retrieval is needed, then the shamanic practitioner embarks upon a journey along with their helping spirits to seek that soul essence and to then bring it back and restore it to the client. And what they're bringing back again is pure light. It's their pure soul essence that is intact and that has been unharmed. And so for someone to become infused with that soul essence, particularly following something that's been very challenging, is such an important part of the healing process.
AB: You know, you talked about soul loss and soul retrieval. Typically, how long does something like this take? Are we talking about days? Are we talking weeks? Are we talking months?
JK: It does vary, although generally, soul retrieval can happen in the course of a single session. However, there may be soul loss that has happened on more than one occasion. And so it's possible that someone may require a series of sessions in order to restore their sense of harmony, balance, and well-being. And of course, everyone carries a different trauma burden. And so it depends on each person's unique biography and what it is that they're bringing to the session and to the healing process. I think what I would say is that every journey, for me, every journey is a ritual, and oftentimes it's a series of sessions or rituals. I would use those terms interchangeably.
AB: And would you say that the practice has evolved or changed to fit into the modern day world? Or would you say that there are a lot of elements which are still the same?
JK: Well, I think that's a fascinating question, because obviously this work has been practised cross-culturally on every continent, I gather, since the beginning of recorded history, and yet in such a wide variety of ways. So what are the essential qualities?
So, for me, the essential qualities that I work with are entering into a transition state or altered state in order to widen my apertures of perception, to be able to experience the spirit that enlivens all things, that enlivens this world, and that enlivens me. And so that enables me to perceive the spirits that enliven the trees and the plants around me, and to perceive the helping spirits who are all around me and to connect with my spirit and so forth. And so that's a fundamental element, I feel, although different means are used, another fundamental element is the element of partnership or collaboration. And, of course, we see, culturally, people using prayer, devotion, and worship in order to appeal to the spirits, to the divine, for help and assistance. And all we're doing is contacting those same beings using this practice. And I would say another element is service. That this is work that certainly I do on my own behalf, and I reach out to my helping spirits for support within my own life. And my work lies in training people to become practitioners in the service of their communities. And so the element of service and community that we're serving as a bridge between our community and the spirit world. So I would say that those are some of the basic elements that I certainly practise, that I believe have been practised, although in different ways over millennia.
AB: Kuau, I know that you've been trying to get people to do more research on peyote.
So tell me, what are the latest findings from the research that has been done?
KV: Peyote is a plant that has probably more alkaloids than any other plant. Alkaloids have been researched because they are one of the molecules that help the body produce stem cells. So if you study the plant itself, you know that if you cut the top of the peyote button, it automatically heals itself. So this ability of the plant, these molecules to regenerate, and then if you put it on the earth later, it will regenerate. Roots studied these alkaloids, and they found that a lot of people after, as Julie explained, have had some sort of trauma. They discovered that the chakras are directly connected to your endocrine system, which is your glands that are producing the hormones. Your hormones. Exactly. So what the alkaloids do is they help the actual glands to repair the cells and start producing the hormones in proper quantities. If you're depressed because of abuse or because of loss or separation, these things. So the peyote will help. The alkaloids in the peyote will help the glands heal themselves. This is the holistic approach. Rather than just give somebody an artefact, for example, you could produce these hormones in a laboratory, and then you can give this to the person, and this could help them. And it probably does to a certain degree, but it doesn't necessarily heal them.
AB: So how do you think, can this be incorporated into healing for mental illness literally across the globe? How can we do it?
KV: I've recommended microdosing initial introduction to the concepts. The Yodi is something that you cannot overdose on, and you do not become addicted, and their healing effect is long-lasting.
AB: And that's a very important message. And I think, I mean, I went to a talk by Imperial College as well the other day, and that's the very important message, that you cannot get addicted. And exactly what you're saying, is that these actually heal you rather than just repair it temporarily. Julie, do you want to add anything to this? How can we incorporate shamanic practices and shamanic healing into the mental wellness situation today?
JK: Well, I think one important consideration has to do with diagnosis when it comes to mental illness. One of the ways in which I've seen spiritual healers or shamanic healers to work very effectively when it comes to assisting with diagnosis is actually to work in partnership with a psychiatrist or a psychologist or a therapist. Because, unfortunately, part of what we're seeing in the mental health field is that there is often a misdiagnosis where the presenting symptoms are considered to be originating from the person and have labels associated with them, diagnostic labels associated with them. And so I think the first step is to consider mental illness through more than just the typical lens that we're looking through. To give you a very concrete example, one of the common forms of spiritual illness is possession illness. That's when someone has passed away and not crossed over successfully, and their soul takes up residency with a living person. And through that living person, they can begin expressing themselves, and they can express their proclivities, they can express their preferences. They can express their imbalances, they can express their illnesses. A person suffering from possession illness can have physical symptoms that are not theirs, emotional, psychological, and mental symptoms that aren't theirs, and energetic symptoms that aren't theirs. But if that symptomatic presentation is treated as originating from them or with them, then it becomes psychologized. Instead of there being even the possibility that the presence of a separate soul, I would describe them as a suffering being, could actually be causing those symptoms. And so, for example, one of the very common symptoms of possession illness is hearing voices. And of course, that's a symptom that we associate, speaking in very broad terms, with mental illness or imbalance. But if we take a step back and consider that from a diagnostic perspective, we might be leaving out the possibility that it's actually someone else's voice. And increasingly, I'm seeing people from a variety of disciplines, neurosurgeons, and physicians, and people practising Chinese medicine and acupuncture, herbalism, such a wide range. And it's through that process of people seeking out as spiritual healers and being well trained and then being able to return to the disciplines that they came from originally and infuse those disciplines with this knowledge and with these teachings and practices. That's where that beautiful blending is going to occur.
AB: And the other thing, something that Kuau mentioned when he was talking, and he said that these medicines change your state. Now, what I wanted to ask you is, when you're taking on a client, how do you explain the ethical issues and the safety issues to them about what they're about to do?
JK: I think, in answer to your question, I think the context is very important. For me, what matters most when it comes to the students I train and the clients that I work with is safety. I feel that safety is an essential part of the healing process. For someone to be receptive to healing, I think it's essential that they feel safe. And so there's an emphasis for me and my work in how I train practitioners and how I hold space for clients and how I can create safety, transparency, ethics, consent, and my being as communicative as possible and ensuring that people have as much agency and choice as possible.
AB: What would you say is the biggest success story you have seen unfold in front of your eyes?
KV: Okay. Well, I met a woman who had been abused by her father, but she had already done a lot of things on her own to overcome this. Like, she was a straight-A student. She was going from foster home to foster home. Nevertheless, she received a grant to go to the university, but she was still struggling with certain things, personal relationships. She came to the peyote ceremonies, and she got, like, a different perspective. And then she went on a vision quest. She did four years of these things. You're talking about drinking in a circle with no food and water. She did four of those. Then she went to the sun dance and did four years of that where you're dancing in the sun, no food, no water. And then she got her PhD and started writing books, and then she became a certified midwife. So, yeah, she's a shining example of when I was giving her the blessing for her to conduct the ceremonies. After the whole, it was a long process, but at the moment we had the community. When I started blessing her at the altar, it started raining. When I started blessing her, and when I finished blessing her, it stopped raining. You're off the ground in her image.
AB: Lovely.
KV: It's like miracles, or it's like something extra extraordinary,
AB: You could say, and, Julie, tell me your story. Tell me one story. That really moved you.
JK: I think what I feel inspired to share is just the other day I was teaching a circle and a woman in her sixties who had been a healer all of her life and had provided this beautiful, loving support for others all of her life, practising the healing modality that she works within. She shared in this circle that she herself had actually never felt so dearly loved and cherished as she felt through having connected over three days with the helping spirits. And that although she had been offering that to others, she'd offered that constancy, she had offered that care and support as a healer. And on a very simple level, I feel that when people can begin to connect with the spirits that enliven everything all around us and help spirits too, that it can assuage the sense of isolation, the sense of separateness, the loneliness that so many people experience, that's what inspires me.
AB: That's lovely, isn't it? Because then people begin to feel the love. Maybe a really nice way to end would be for you to give a message to our listeners from the helping spirits.
JK: Oh, sure, yes, I'd be happy to. This message comes from one of my teachers of the Egyptian pantheon, Nekhbet, who says to everyone listening, of course, to all of us here also, that you are loved and cherished beyond measure.
AB: That's wonderful. That was wonderful. Kuau, will you get us a message as well before we go?
KV: Yes. Eat more peyote.
AB: Eat more peyote. Thank you so much. Thank you, Julie. And thank you, Kuau, for being here with us today. What an incredible chat we've had and I hope a lot more people will turn towards this amazing ancient wisdom that you both have been lucky enough to encounter and teach others about. Thank you. Okay.
KV: I enjoyed listening to you, Julie. It was nice. I learned a lot by listening to your sharing.
JK: That's very kind. Likewise.
KV: And thanks again for hosting this too. Thank you.
AB: Thank you for being here.
JK: Yes, thank you. It's been a privilege to be part of this conversation.
AB: Thank you all very much. Thank you for listening to this soul-searching chat on shamanism. What a beautiful ancient practice this is. And please join us next time. Thank you for being here with us today. And please do subscribe to Wellness curated on all the podcasting channels, and subscribe to Wellness, curated by Anshu Bahanda on YouTube. In this way, we're able to get you better and better speakers for free. Thank you.
