Wellness Curated
On Wellness Curated, Anshu Bahanda gets world renowned experts on physical and mental health to guide you pro bono. Packed with content that helps people to understand their bodies and minds better and to find relief from the pain and restrictions that have long prevented them from living their best lives, this show is a go-to resource for anyone who wants to improve their quality of life.
Disclaimer: The information provided in this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment.
Wellness Curated
Wellness with TCM: Acupuncture, Herbal Medicine, and Balancing Yin & Yang
In this episode of Wellness Curated, Anshu Bahanda talks with Darren Rose and Jasmine Modi, two experienced Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) experts. Darren, based in the UK, and Jasmine, practising for over 27 years in India, share how TCM can help with everything from stress and fertility to pain and overall balance.
They open up about their personal experiences with TCM, explaining key concepts like Yin, Yang, and Chi. The conversation shows how these ancient practices still work today, offering natural ways to improve health without the side effects of modern treatments.
If you're interested in exploring TCM's natural methods, curious about acupuncture and herbal medicine, or want to learn how these traditions fit into modern life, this episode has a lot to offer. Tune in for a simple and practical look at how TCM can support your well-being.
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Anshu Bahanda: The story of TCM actually begins with the ancient Chinese belief of the Dao/ Tao. And if some of you might remember, we did an episode on the Dao/ Tao. We’ll put links below. But the Tao is basically about the fundamental nature of the universe and living in harmony with it. And if you remember, it's about two opposing forces, opposing yet complementary forces of Yin and Yang and the Tao believes that yin and yang exist in everything in nature, and it's important for them to be in balance, even in the human body. And that really is the basis of TCM. The earliest known records that we know was, I think, the Huangdi Neijing, which is also known as the yellow emperors in a canon. And here there's a lot of talk about Qi. Now, Qi is the energy, the life force that flows within us. And it's believed that when there are blockages or stagnancies in the Qi, that's when there are issues and illnesses in the human body. Qi is also… some of you might know Qi is Prana. In Ayurveda, it's known as prana, but it's basically the life force that exists within the human body. And TCM actually developed surprisingly through trial and error. So they have a system of herbs. There are various techniques, like cupping, acupuncture, Gua Sha there is tuina massage, but a lot of it developed through being passed down generations, and they're very, very secretive about their way of doing things today. TCM is widely practised all over the world, and then millions of people who found it useful, I for one, have found it extremely useful. Welcome to wellness curated. This is your host, Anshu bahanda, and as we talk about healing traditions across cultures, we have two fabulous practitioners here with us today to talk about TCM, or traditional Chinese medicine. We have Darren Rose, who's based in the UK, who does the whole range from herbal medicines to cupping to acupuncture to Tuina to Guasha, the whole lot. And then we have Jasmine Modi, who, for 20. She's based in India. Jasmine is based in India, and for 27 years, she has been an expert in acupuncture, and she's helped with facial rejuvenation, with IVF support with detox. She also works with the Tata Center for Cancer, and she's done research on CIPN. Welcome to the chat, Jasmine and Darren, and thank you for being here with us today. So Jasmine, I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start by asking you about a very basic thing about TCM, and that is this whole concept of yin and yang, these opposing, complementary forces that need forces that need to be balanced for our well being. Can you explain to us, how does that work?
Jasmine Modi: See, like how you rightly explained in the start, in the brief that no, the Yin and Yang are two fundamental forces through which the universe exists. So anything that we see, feel, touch, understand, is divided into yin and yang. Okay, they are opposite in nature, but yet they are indispensable. Now, when a patient comes to me, the moment they enter the first thing that we will try to understand is whether the patient is more leaning towards Yin or more leaning towards Yang. There are various ways through which we can understand whether the problem is Yin or Yang. Like this first example, a patient comes and complains that, okay, I have breathing issues only at night time, which means it's more of a yin problem, because Yin is night, Yin is female, Yang is male. Yin is subtle. Yang is stronger. Yin is a continuously working organ. Yang is a hollow organ. So like, if somebody comes with a problem, like, say, acidity, which means it's more of a hollow organ problem, so it's a yang problem. Like, if a person comes with some allergy, which is, like, distributed throughout the skin, throughout the body, which means it's Yang. If it's concentrated into a smaller area, it's Yin. So that is how we distribute the ailments into yin and yang. Now, beautifully, this yin and yang manifest themselves through five elements. Those five elements are wood, fire, earth, metal, and water. Okay, so like there are. And personality traits, different emotional issues. Each and every element will manifest itself into physical as well as some metaphysical form, like a safe person who's coming to me, and he will be continuously moving, yeah, His leg is continuously shaking. He likes multitasking. That person will have a lot of anger issues. That person may have a lot of muscular issues, muscular aches, pains or any muscle muscle related problem. Then that person is categorised as a wood element person, that is how analysis or diagnosis of TCM is done in acupuncture
AB: And Jasmine, do you also have a combination of the different elements?
JM: Yes, will be a constitution of two or three elements.
AB: So you use this as the basis and then you build up from there?
JM: Yes, absolutely. Thank you.
AB: And Qi is central to TCM. Right. So, Darren, can you elaborate for me? What is Qi and how does Qi influence everything? The mental health, the physical health, the health of the spirit. How does it affect everything?
Darren Rose: Qi, initially is much bigger than our human bodies. The entire living existence has a kind of Qi. It's called yuan Qi, which means a kind of original Qi. When we come into existence, we start to have our own system of energy that begins. So we differentiate constitutional energy, which is coming from when you're first born into the world, and what you get from your parents. We could link it a little bit to what we would describe in western medicine as a kind of inheritance, genetic inheritance. This is our kind of constitutional energy, and it's a kind of reserve, a reservoir, if you like. And also, to a degree, the different health aspects that we may have acquired from our parents. And all of these things are kind of kept within our, what we call Jing, but essentially is this genetic inheritance, which is at the beginning of everything, really. So this is all our inherited kind of Qi, if you like. But it's inherited not only from our parents, but also from, you know, whoever we think is the bigger.
Obviously, in Taoism, they say it's the big Tao. And then once you're born into the world, you have something which we call post heaven Qi. So it's Qi which is made after we arrive in the world. Qi is the fundamental, underneath everything, underpinning everything. And then how we spend it is the foundation, really, of how we use Chinese medicine to bring people back into balance again. But I'm sure you also find that when we're talking to clients, a lot of our time we're doing a lot of the things that we're doing is reeducating a patient, expenditure of energy, really. And most of the time, people are running on empty because when they're tired, they have a coffee, they have a tea, or I have another tea, and then I. They push themselves past feeling exhausted in order to get another piece of work done. And then they stay up late because the boss needs something done and they can't not do it. And then they have to wake up early because they've got kids. And, you know, it just. We're always running a little bit empty. And the problem with that, it's fine for a short period of time, and then after time, your Qi goes down.
AB: So, Darren, you talk about bringing your clients back into balance. Tell me, when someone comes to you, how do you do this combination of these various things to get people into balance?
DR: Yeah, I mean, we're very lucky, I think, with Chinese medicine, because it has such a long history. They've worked out all of the kinks, and we haven't evolved, really. We haven't grown extra gills so that we can filter pollution. Nothing's changed. We're all the same human beings as we used to be, with all the same issues. But I think if we boil everything down to its complete fundamentals, all disharmony is created because we have resistance to change at some level. So resistance to change in that instance may end up creating stagnation or deficiency, which will lead you to get a cold. And it's quite often we get cold when we travel, isn't it? Especially being on the plane, for instance, or a few days of being overwhelmed by the heat. Stagnation of Qi, stagnation of yin is often a resistance to change, resistance to the situation that you're in at the time. There's lots of ways of looking at Chinese medicine, and we're lucky to have many models, in fact, actually to look at how the body works. In my own personal practice, I mostly use the pulse. So Chinese medicine has a pulse diagnosis, which I'm sure you've experienced. What's wonderful about that is it's a conversation, and it's a conversation between the person who's on the couch, so the person that's being, well, we could say treated, and the practitioner who's trying to. I wouldn't say heal, because that's funny. It's an interesting way, it's more of a western approach to it. But as a practitioner, I think I'd frame myself as somebody who's helping facilitate the change that's needed. What that means is that the person whose pulse I'm taking, their shen, or they're kind of, we could say organising consciousness or subconscious or whatever you want to call it, is allowing through the blood vessels and heart pumping the conversation for me to listen to through my fingers. And in that dialogue, I'll be able to understand what the patient's needing in the present moment, and which means that I'm not really in charge of the treatment, actually, the patient's totally in charge and they know exactly what they need, and all we're doing is listening to what's happening and responding to that. So the treatment for me hinges around taking a pulse, being present, listening to what the pulse is telling me…
AB: So very personalised.
DR: Absolutely personalised. Yeah. Chinese medicine is coming more from Taoism, which is more about coming from a lot more like a sage kind of approach, isn't it? It's more like the Yoda, you know, it's more like Yoda from Star Wars, you know, instead of having to go and fight against its allowing the change to happen by being the right conduit for that, I think.
AB: Thank you. That was wonderful. Thank you for that. Now, Jasmine, I want to ask you about acupuncture. Talk me through how do you manage to restore balance with these little needles?
JM: So when an acupuncture needle has been inserted in the body, the body will release almost 16 different types of amino acids, okay? Which will act like a messenger and they will send signals to your brain and from the brain. Like for example, if I am puncturing your, okay, the signals are going to a certain cortex of your brain where I need the changes to happen.
And from there the healing takes place and your central nervous system gets activated and that area which needs to be healed starts getting healing, okay. That's how acupuncture needles work, by activating your central nervous system. When a patient will come, like how Darren explained, the first and foremost thing is pulse diagnosis because we will know exactly what is happening inside a patient's body, okay. And accordingly, a treatment plan will be formulated wherein we will decide the set of needles, how many needles will be put to balance that imbalances that we have found out through pulse diagnosis, tongue diagnosis. There are various different ways of diagnosis through which we can, okay, as far as the number of needles are concerned, at least my teacher has taught me minimum needle, maximum cure, okay. A good acupuncturist is someone who will insert very few needles and should get maximum cure. If you put like 50, 60 needles, then it's like by hook or by crook you are going to hit the target point. That does not make sense. And those few needles maximum should be like ten, minimum should be like two needles. And in those many needles, you should be able to achieve the imbalances in your body, okay. And balance it out so that the patient can feel the effect of your acupuncture. That is how you are saying that I feel good about it.
AB: So you're saying it works in the central nervous system of the body. That's the basis of how it works. So using that logic, it should be very good for things like anxiety, depression, and some of the mental health issues which are so prevalent in the world today.
JM: Absolutely. Be it anxiety, depression, fear, insecurities.
AB: So maybe it should be made compulsory in a lot of, what's the word for it? How can I put this? Modern medicine. So to say, maybe it should be compulsory to sit alongside a lot of modern medicine.
JM: Right now. I see a lot of practitioners combining it, advocating that, no, you can try acupuncture instead of going for harsh medication.
AB: So do you think in India that they're working alongside? Because in India, a lot of traditional medicine as well as modern medicine do coexist and it has coexisted for centuries. Are more and more doctors embracing it?
JM: Yes, absolutely. I'm researching with Tata Cancer hospital, so that's a very good integration of modern as well as ancient therapy. I work with a lot of IVF doctors here which advocate and support acupuncture assisted IVFs for cases which are really, really difficult.
So that is where we come into play, because simple cases can be successful easily, but cases which are not easily successful are referred to us and that is where we give them results. So that is also an approach which is very, very good. I see a lot of doctors referring to us as paediatrics, like small babies who don't want to start with antibiotics and stuff. So we get a lot of patients who are like small children to us. So that is also opening. And we have many doctors also who come to us, like for small pains and aches and muscular and other pains and aches also.
AB: And Darren, tell me, in the UK, do you feel it exists alongside modern medicine?
You know, TCM, happily, does it exist or is there still resistance?
DR: I think there's always a little resistance with the older generation, but I think there's a bigger, bigger, bigger and bigger body of research now with very good studies showing that Chinese medicine is incredibly effective and a lot of very good peer review studies which are swaying western medicine's approach. And I also have a lot of referrals from GPs, consultants and I do a lot of IVF work, and we are very integrated, actually, which is what's nice about it. And I think in the UK, there's a lot of the IVF, assistive fertility kind of clinics themselves, and the consultants are very aware of how effective Chinese medicine is, and they tend to refer quite a lot. I think there are other specialisms or directions of western medicine. It's not as well integrated, but certainly with assistive fertility, it is here.
AB: Darren and Jasmine, you both talked about, in our conversations about assisted fertility, you know, sort of assisting with IVF. Do you ever work with just fertility without IVF? So someone comes to you with fertility?
DR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd say, you know, out of all of the fertility patients that I work with, about 70%, 60% to 70% are what we call natural fertility, and then the rest are assisted fertility, and we're very good. I'm sure you agree, as well, we're very good with the grey area, where western medicine doesn't really know what to do, especially what we call unexplained infertility blockages in fallopian tubes that aren't complete tubal blockages, but where there's perhaps fluid or something like that, that western medicine doesn't want to go in and do anything about polycystic ovarian syndrome. If people don't want to do assistive fertility, we can help the body to process better. From a western perspective, we could call it have a better function of the processing of sugar, lower their insulin resistance, for instance, and help the body function in the metabolic function much more effectively. And that tends to have a regulatory effect on the period and things like that. So it's very effective for fertility issues that are either yet undiagnosed by western medicine or have been diagnosed, but there isn't really a clear strategy, necessarily.
AB: What about you, Jasmine? Do you also do the same?
JM: Yes, absolutely.
AB: So you've had clients come to you who are not going through IVF, who just want help with fertility. And do you have any kind of earth shattering success stories to tell us?
JM: Yeah, of course I have. I'll just share a case where the girl's endometrium lining was 4 mm and it was not growing. In spite of all the efforts and everything. And ideally the endometrium lining has to be around 8 mm, and she would not menstruate. Okay. During her menstrual cycle, she would just release a little powdery like substance, but not blood. Blood as such. So we were working on her. We were trying to balance her uterus, improve the blood flow and all that. So I and luckily, the couple were happier working and balancing the uterus. So we got the time and we started working on the uterus. And before even we could think of IVF, the girl conceived. And she has a nice daughter.
AB: Lovely. What an amazing story. Thank you for that.
JM: This was like a very rare thing where at 4 or 5 mm of endometrium lining, we can conceive because the uterus was very well balanced.
AB: Wow. So, Darren, I want to ask you about herbal medicine, because I know that you give herbal medicine, and I don't find that many TCM practitioners in the UK who give herbal medicines. Do you find that people are very suspicious of herbal medicine?
DR: I think there's a little resistance to it sometimes. Obviously not with my, you know, with my asian patients. Everyone from the east has grown up taking Chinese herbs and even in Cantonese cooking, all of the herbs are used. Well, not all of them, but a great deal of the herbs are used as a daily food source, ultimately in soups and stews, and it's very common in the culture, but certainly western patients have a bit more resistance.
AB: Every time I've mentioned herbs to someone, the Chinese herbs, people's reactions always, do you know what's in it? There's always, like, people who are always distrusting of it. I wanted to ask you about some herbs, like, for common ailments like insomnia or digestive issues or.
DR: Yeah, I mean, well, yes and no. I can. So, for instance, in Chinese medicine for sleep issues, we would use something called Suan Zao Ren (SZR). It's not very easy to get for most people, but to be honest, in the clinic with people, if I'm not giving them, if their resistance to Chinese herbs is there, and that sometimes is the case, we can fall back and people can very safely take magnesium. Magnesium is a great tool for aiding sleep, very good for relaxing the central nervous system, great for relaxing muscles, and very safe to take. In Chinese medicine, we can use some herbs that can tonify the digestive system. So things like ginger, which are really useful for making the stomach function better. If we're feeling a little colder and not enough sort of defensive energy on the exterior, then you can add things like cinnamon, but cinnamon bark would be very good for doing that. Add a little bit more, what we call yang. It's a yang tonic. Chinese herbs, as we talked about with patients earlier on, can be mint, ginger, you know, garlic, spring onions. They're all, they're all regular foods, a lot of them.
AB: Yeah. So you're saying use the more common ones, the, you know, because, you know, they won't have side effects. They'll be easily available. Just use what's in your kitchen.
DR: Absolutely. Absolutely.
AB: I also want to talk quickly about cupping. So now I know it's become famous because celebrities have been doing cupping and everything. ASMR, I know you have a number of celebrity clients in India. Can you explain, Jasmine, how cupping helps treat various conditions?
JM: So, basically, cupping is exerting negative pressure, the blood flow in that area. Okay? So in cupping, when we are doing dry cupping, it is essentially for muscle aches and pains. Okay? That is just through a gun, we create a vacuum. Okay. Essentially, a wet cupping, where we draw blood out of the skin, is done when there is a lot of stagnation, when there is heat syndrome, there is a lot of inflammation in the body. That is the time when we do wet cupping, and fire cupping is done for again, activating your central nervous system. It is done for detoxification. It is done to help strengthen your digestive system. Different forms of cupping are done for different purposes. For detox, I use acupuncture and fire cupping for, again, for any digestive issues, cupping on your abdomen is an amazing result.
AB: The bodywork or tuina, the bodywork and manual therapy I know is a big part of Chinese treatment. How is this different from a normal massage?
DR: Tuina is a method. It's a little bit more like physio or sports massage. It's very targeted, usually can be a general treatment, but really it's more about targeting specific areas where you have an issue. And there's lots of research to show that the different types of hand techniques that we have with Tuina is actually where the needling techniques probably came from. Because there are vibration techniques, there are very fast movement techniques, they are like fixed long pressure techniques. There's many different ways of approaching Tuina. And the traditional methods have, or they help to underline your and support the way you do your needling techniques. So they're very much integrated in terms of how things work. But Tuina is mostly working on opening up sinew channels in order that Qi and blood can flow. And your connective tissue, if we look at it from a western perspective, can have the correct amount of blood moving through the tissue unobstructed. Because when you have an obstruction of blood flow through the tissue, atrophy, stagnation of fluids, lymph, everything builds up, and then you end up with more pressure, more stiffness, and then over time, atrophy, and we can't move. So, you know, people get very serious…
AB: So it's not necessarily relaxed. Right.
DR: It's not a relaxing Swedish style massage. It's much more like a deep tissue or a physio or it's, you know, the, the idea is that at the end of the treatment, or at least the following few days, you'll be, you'll have a lot of relief and hopefully resolution of your pain and symptoms that you came in for. That's the idea.
AB: The other thing that I really love about Chinese medicine, Darren exactly what you said was that how everything needs to be in balance, and you also need to work in balance with the seasons, which is absolutely wonderful because it really brings you close to nature and absolutely Jasmine, in your book, AcuTips. I know you've talked about this, and can you give us some practical tips from your book which will help us with daily health issues?
JM: Okay, so one tip, which is definitely not in my Acutip book, but I would like to definitely share. Generally what we see in modern times is that we all have a monotonous way of exercising. According to Chinese philosophy, your exercises also should be according to the seasons. Like each and every season, again, is basically manifesting or is controlled by certain energies, right? So, like when the spring season is there, wood energy is more active. So that is the time you do a lot of stretching exercises. You stretch the muscles, you increase the blood flow of the muscles. Winters are the season, which are like very slow down seasons. So this is the time you are not supposed to exercise or you are exercising which will slow down your heartbeat rate. Like maybe slow yogas, wherein you are not actually using your body energies or expelling or draining off your body energies, but you are trying to build up because winter is the time when your body hibernates. So exercises also have to be done according to the season. So this is how seasons also manifest into five elements.
AB: And tell me, Jasmine, do you have any other lifestyle tips or diet tips that you want to leave people with?
JM: Important guidance that I would give to today's generation is to follow the circadian rhythm, okay? We have a circadian rhythm which is set by nature in our body, okay? So in that circadian rhythm, we have like time slots in acupuncture given to each and every organ, all right? So, like starting from 03:00 a.m. to 05:00 a.m. is the lung time. That is the time where your lung energy is excess, okay. Five to seven is the time of your large intestine. That is the reason, like the first time when we wake up, we evacuate because your large intestine energy is active. All right. So that is, if you wake up early, your large intestine energy is active. So you evacuate. Well, if you do not wake up during this time, then you will evacuate. But you will not evacuate, like, know when you are working in the active time frame. So then from seven to nine is the stomach energy. That is the time your breakfast should be done. All right. After that is your digestive energy, still eight. And then your repairing energies, your liver energies and all that start at around 11. So by that, by 11:00 you should be down and you should be sleeping because that is when your liver energy is working at its peak so that your body can repair, recover, rejuvenate. So you are ready for the next day. So it's very important to follow the circadian rhythm. That really helps to stay healthy.
AB: Darren, any recommendations that you would like to leave our listeners with on diet and lifestyle?
DR: They're very similar. I think they're very similar to Jasmin's that, uh, seasonal energies, um, require seasonal eating. So I think, you know, when we follow what's available in terms of diet, we. We tend to live healthier. And with the seasons, um, you know, we're in, especially in the UK here, you can buy anything, can't you? You know, you go to the supermarket, you can buy. You can buy pineapple, you can buy papaya. It's freezing outside, maybe like three degrees, and we can eat all these cool fruits. And the problem with that is that summer fruits, especially summer tropical fruits, they're very cooling and we shouldn't be eating them, really, at that particular time of year. We should be eating food that's available to us at that time. And obviously, the occasional papaya, the occasional pineapple is fine. But if you're eating that every day and that's your kind of, your lifestyle, and you eat the same things continuously, this isn't following the seasons. And this is, you know, it comes back again to this idea of resisting change in the Chinese medicine calendar. As Yasmin was saying, there's seasonal changes and actually there are. There is a seasonal change every two weeks. So we said there's 24 seasons within the whole year period, which means every two weeks, we're just changing a little bit. We're changing a little bit. We're changing a little bit. And then where we tend to see it, obviously, is the bigger seasonal changes when we have the equinoxes and the solstices, right. So they're interested in the seasonal changes and being in as much as you can in line with those changes, because in Taoism, the idea is to slowly go back and be more blended with everything and to be completely blended with nature. So if we're not aware of seasonal changes, if we never go out, if we never spend any time outside in nature, it's very difficult to be connected to the seasonal changes, and that will create a level of resistance. And it's very prominent in the UK, especially in London.
You know, we're on. A lot of people are in an office that is on the tube, they're back in their house with central heating on, and they don't really stay outside very much. And that's why in traditional Chinese cultures, they're doing exercise outside. Every day you go outside, you practise in the park, and as the seasons change, you see it, you experience that and then it keeps you much more in touch with that. So I think being outside more is really important.
Seasonal eating is really important. Local eating as much as we can. And if we have a good way of expressing our emotions, frustrations, we have output for those kinds of things. As Jasmine was saying, you change your exercise plan throughout the year. More meditation in the winter. Springtime is about stretching the tendons, lots of strengthening, lengthening, opening the body up. Summertime is more about moving more. And autumn is a funny time where we're kind of starting to go back in. But as Jasmine was saying, Lungs are autumn. So we want to have a lot of breathing exercises during that period. And it's often when we start to get respiratory illnesses, isn't it? Autumn going into winter? Yes, going into it. Strengthening those as we go is the way to do it.
AB: Thank you for your practical tips and for sharing your knowledge with us today. I'm very grateful. Thank you.
DR: Thanks for inviting me. Thank you.
JM: Thank you. Thank you.
AB: Thank you very much. So, TCM is actually a living tradition. It exists in a big way today, and it's growing. And as you can see from our conversation, it's very scientific. It focuses on prevention, which is incredible personalization, and also on the interconnectedness of the mind, the body and the spirit. I hope you enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you're going to take away a lot of information and it's going to help you a lot. The traditional Chinese medicine conversation that we've just had in our season, healing traditions across cultures.
We hope to see you next time. Thank you.
